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Old 26 Apr 2011, 19:56 (Ref:2870211)   #1326
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Forum members reported that the R18 smoked extensively.
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Originally Posted by Acid09 View Post
- The new 908 sounds incredibly sweet, raw & powerful, the old "Diesel cars don't have proper sound" talking point has to be dropped. The car can even be heard when it's surrounded by screamers like the 458...very nice! The R18 sounds "meh" though...

- .. it makes up for that with another "feature" though. The car is a nasty smoker, I don't think I´ve ever seen any Diesel put out this much black smoke. We all know that the ACO does not enforce the "no visible immisions" rule but Audi is taking it too far here. Watching from the Esses, it was always easy to see the R18 coming, just look out for the big black cloud under the Dunlop-bridge. No visible smoke on the 908, and that's certainly not my bias talking..
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Originally Posted by batmobile View Post
As ACID 09 says, the Audis were very smoky but on the track they ran on a rail. They are so silencious than last year, compared with pugs that are noisier.
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Originally Posted by PascaLM View Post
I don't know is someone was sandbagging, but I think that the smoking R18, with its washing-machine noise, has an exceptional behaviour in the lowest curves. The use of the front tires is awesome. Its trajectory is noticeably smoother and far better than the Peugeot's.
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Old 26 Apr 2011, 20:14 (Ref:2870221)   #1327
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anyway........did anyone notice what the general smoke levels were when the R18 was running at the lemans test????......at sebring it was smoking quite noticably.......I notice an image showing the pugs were smoking a touch on the lemans test.......I also hear the R18 is belching a big chuff of black smoke when acellerating away from the lemans pits - just like sebring........I'm really interested to see what the ACO do if this happens in qualifying or the race, last year they turned a blind eye, but I cant imagine thats going to be acceptable for long as it blatantly breaks the rule of no visible exhaust fumes allowed.
Well when they were passing me at around 170mph-ish on the run down between Arnage and Porsche, there was no sign of any smoke being emitted at all. I saw more from the Pug than the Audi, and that was only the mildest of mists even then. So maybe any smoke was on acceleration rather than at speed.
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Old 26 Apr 2011, 21:00 (Ref:2870252)   #1328
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On the official Peugeot Sport you can see a minor puff of smoke accelerating out of a corner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIf8BpUx7qo#t=2m11s

In the Sebring test video the R18 produces lots of smoke on startup in the pits:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9e15hs_T0k#t=0m49s
but also on the track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9e15hs_T0k#t=1m22s
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Old 26 Apr 2011, 22:01 (Ref:2870298)   #1329
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Turbo-By-Garrett/

Update from Garrett's official Facebook page:

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Garrett TR30R-powered Audi R18 showcases the new closed-cockpit look during testing. Will the new R18 continue Audi's dominance of Le Mans?
The TR30R is the same turbocharger Peugeot used on their V12 engine, in a twin configuration. (Audi actually also used two of these on their previous V10) That being the case, I suppose a single-turbo configuration is likely on Audi's V6.

This, and the exhaust placement, may point to an inside-V configuration.

Additional information
http://www.honeywell.com/sites/ts/tt...3212354651.htm
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...i_Peugeot.html
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 05:55 (Ref:2870367)   #1330
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Cool Info. The suspension bits intrigue me. I'm no expert in any of these fields, but are these suspensions anything like F1 cars? If so do you think any team would benefit from a pull-rod type suspension in the rear? If it's even possible? Sorry if OT.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 06:24 (Ref:2870381)   #1331
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Cool Info. The suspension bits intrigue me. I'm no expert in any of these fields, but are these suspensions anything like F1 cars? If so do you think any team would benefit from a pull-rod type suspension in the rear? If it's even possible? Sorry if OT.
i dont know too much about it but i think teams in endurance racing stray from the pullrod rear because of accessiblity issues. If you had a little suspension issue youd have to practically remove the floor of the car to get to the rockers etc... with push rod eveything is accesisble. From an endurance standpoint it makes for a much quicker fix in case of an issue. In sprint racing like f1. Suspension issues in F1 cars are never repaired during races so timeliness doesnt matter.

i believe redbull does the pull rod thing for aerodynamic reasons. newey keeps mentioning in articles that the car has a high rake meaning the car is basically angled downward with the rear being higher(this may be as a result of the requirements of pullrod suspension). This obviously working for them since theyre front wings automatically dip towards the ground even if they dont flex
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 06:31 (Ref:2870383)   #1332
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I think the black smoke corresponds to turbo lag.

Last edited by Audi Racer; 27 Apr 2011 at 06:45.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 07:09 (Ref:2870393)   #1333
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I think the black smoke corresponds to turbo lag.
as in the boost has reached the max yet but the fuel is still be poured in





the dreaded 666 post

Last edited by Audi Racer; 27 Apr 2011 at 07:14.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 07:32 (Ref:2870403)   #1334
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i have just had a startling thought. i need to share this with the world.

for a second i thought the r18 was supercharged.
the max displacement allowed according to the regulatons for a supercharged diesel is 3.7liters. The audi is some kind of 3.7litre v6.(coincidence i think not)

The supercharger doesnt need to be cooled that much. they could mount it in between the cylinder banks.

Why would they want to run 1 turbo charger.(that would get really hot.

1 supercharger makes sense.

Last edited by Audi Racer; 27 Apr 2011 at 07:53.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 08:26 (Ref:2870429)   #1335
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The rule books talks about "atmosphérique" vs "suralimenté", which can best be translated as "normally aspirated" vs "forced induction". So in theory you can use a turbocharger (exhaust gases driving the compressor), a supercharger (crankshaft driving the compressor) or both, irrespectively whether the fuel is petrol or diesel.

However, as you can read on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbodi...diesel_engines it does not make much sense to use a supercharger on a diesel engine. Superchargers take away power from the engine and are bad for fuel economy. A turbocharger almost come for free because you recover energy from the waste exhaust gases.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 08:31 (Ref:2870431)   #1336
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Originally Posted by Audi Racer View Post
i believe redbull does the pull rod thing for aerodynamic reasons.
Indeed, the whole push rod vs pull rod discussion is mainly about making room for air to flow to the rear wing. In LMP cars this is less important because the air flows over the bodywork to the rear wing.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 09:19 (Ref:2870456)   #1337
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
Cool Info. The suspension bits intrigue me. I'm no expert in any of these fields, but are these suspensions anything like F1 cars? If so do you think any team would benefit from a pull-rod type suspension in the rear? If it's even possible? Sorry if OT.
I'd also like to know how much of F1 tech is usable for the suspension. For a start I know endurance cars actually rely on the suspension and not on the tires (like F1) to spring the car since tires have much less sidewall area and bigger - non-flexible - rims.
-Are Peugeot and Audi using flexures to attach the front wishbones to the tub? I know the MG-Lola was the first to do it but I'm pretty sure the current Lolas have gone back to a conventional solution. I don't remember them causing reliability concerns but they were probably high maintenance/expensive to replace.
-Would endurance cars benefit from the reduced weight/enhanced streamlining provided by composite wishbones? Would they last a 24h race?
-What kind of dampers are the 2 manufacturers using? Any of the recent tech from F1 like through-rod dampers and whatnot??
-What happened to the speculations of advanced damping and interlinked front/rear on the 908 from a few year ago? Would it be doable/workable on the current cars?
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 10:03 (Ref:2870479)   #1338
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Indeed, the whole push rod vs pull rod discussion is mainly about making room for air to flow to the rear wing. In LMP cars this is less important because the air flows over the bodywork to the rear wing.

In the case of an LMP the pullrod would go through the tunnel section where as the pushrod aims to the outside of the outer tunnel wall and doesn't protrude into the tunnel.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 12:06 (Ref:2870548)   #1339
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
The rule books talks about "atmosphérique" vs "suralimenté", which can best be translated as "normally aspirated" vs "forced induction". So in theory you can use a turbocharger (exhaust gases driving the compressor), a supercharger (crankshaft driving the compressor) or both, irrespectively whether the fuel is petrol or diesel.

However, as you can read on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbodi...diesel_engines it does not make much sense to use a supercharger on a diesel engine. Superchargers take away power from the engine and are bad for fuel economy. A turbocharger almost come for free because you recover energy from the waste exhaust gases.
I was looking at that engine shot, and I was reminded of the early Ferrari F1 turbos, where they had a sort of turbo/supercharger hybrid, made my Brown Boveri, I think. It sort of used exhaust gas to pressurise intake, all through an engine driven vane structure. Anyway, it LOOKED like what's on that picture...
Also, folks may wish to Google "Commer TS3", for a very advanced design diesel with a supercharger. The last 4 engines were sold to Ford in Dearborn, for ceramic component evaluation... I know, I was there!
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 13:13 (Ref:2870589)   #1340
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Tim you are thinking of a pressure wave supercharger otherwise know as a wave rotor. A copyrighted name for one is Comprex. They have the response of a supercharger but don't consume engine power like superchargers do. Wave rotors also weight less then both turbos and superchargers, and don't require exotic alloys like a turbo. Both NASA and MSU are doing research on them right now. They have many uses outside of a turbo/supercharger replacement. http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/projects_waverotor.htm
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/cdtb/projects/waverotor/ I know Ferrari tried them once but have not heard of any other team trying them.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 15:48 (Ref:2870690)   #1341
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Isn't the TR30 is conventional turbo? What was the model designation for the R15's VTGs (IE, the VTGs being based on the TR30)?

If Audi are using a normal turbo/turbos on the R18, then could the VTGs be a wasted investment, or did they not provide the performance gains hoped for? Or was it just PR for Honeywell/Garrett?
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 21:13 (Ref:2870897)   #1342
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So what do you guys think. is their any merit to this supercharger discussion or some kind of hybrid turbo charging device.
It seems all too coincidental to be ignored

1. the max displacement for supercharger is 3.7ltr. the audi is 3.7ltre v6 with an unspecified "charger"
2.The r18 has no turbo snorkels.
3.Audi closed the vents on the engine cover for the lm test day,
4. they seem to have little cooling requiremtns compared to the peugeot. (theres no side mounted air outlets like the ones tat kept falling off the peugeot in 09-10.)

if not a supercharger can we agree thats the turbo is located in the cylinder bank.


you say that a turbo is better because it only uses exhaust gasses. But with all the torque the diesel make im sure strapping a supercharger onto the crankshaft is not a burden.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 21:35 (Ref:2870911)   #1343
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Originally Posted by Audi Racer View Post
So what do you guys think. is their any merit to this supercharger discussion or some kind of hybrid turbo charging device.
It seems all too coincidental to be ignored

1. the max displacement for supercharger is 3.7ltr. the audi is 3.7ltre v6 with an unspecified "charger"
2.The r18 has no turbo snorkels.
3.Audi closed the vents on the engine cover for the lm test day,
4. they seem to have little cooling requiremtns compared to the peugeot. (theres no side mounted air outlets like the ones tat kept falling off the peugeot in 09-10.)

if not a supercharger can we agree thats the turbo is located in the cylinder bank.


you say that a turbo is better because it only uses exhaust gasses. But with all the torque the diesel make im sure strapping a supercharger onto the crankshaft is not a burden.
Turbo intake is the duct roof. I think the turbo is located in V.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 21:36 (Ref:2870912)   #1344
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Turbo intake is the duct roof. I think the turbo is located in V.
Yeah i noticed the TDI logos lol. Theyre not as visible on the car as they used to be. Theyre only on the rear wing endplates.
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 22:02 (Ref:2870926)   #1345
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I'm still wondering if Audi have even stuck with the VGT turbo technology. It does seem that at very low engine speeds that the R18 has some slight turbo lag (like in the Sebring video) like the R8 and R10 had, and of course, there's the fact that Audi and Honeywell/Garrett spent 3 years (back in the middle of the R10's factory days) and probably quite a bit of money to make the VGT turbo stuff work on the R15.

It doesn't make sense that Audi would squander that investment unless nothing substancial was gained. But the Audi may be using one turbo (given the Garrett info, a compound turbo is unlikely), and VGTs do still have some lag at very low engine speeds (idling/initial start up in the case of the R18) when the throttle is rapidly opened to the full.

However, I did hear a noise in the Sebring video that sounded sort of like a wastegate when the R18 took off in the pits. Maybe it's a VGT that uses a wastegate for some reason (saftey/reliablity factor)?
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Old 27 Apr 2011, 23:31 (Ref:2870962)   #1346
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However, I did hear a noise in the Sebring video that sounded sort of like a wastegate when the R18 took off in the pits. Maybe it's a VGT that uses a wastegate for some reason (saftey/reliablity factor)?
wastegates dont chatter.
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Old 28 Apr 2011, 06:06 (Ref:2871020)   #1347
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
The rule books talks about "atmosphérique" vs "suralimenté", which can best be translated as "normally aspirated" vs "forced induction". So in theory you can use a turbocharger (exhaust gases driving the compressor), a supercharger (crankshaft driving the compressor) or both, irrespectively whether the fuel is petrol or diesel.

However, as you can read on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbodi...diesel_engines it does not make much sense to use a supercharger on a diesel engine. Superchargers take away power from the engine and are bad for fuel economy. A turbocharger almost come for free because you recover energy from the waste exhaust gases.
^ this. Supercharging a diesel engine is possible and works fine, but it comes at the cost of fuel economy - its highest advantage. If someone were running a diesel engine for a single-lap time attack, it would make sense, but not a 24hr race.

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However, I did hear a noise in the Sebring video that sounded sort of like a wastegate when the R18 took off in the pits. Maybe it's a VGT that uses a wastegate for some reason (saftey/reliablity factor)?
That was compressor stalling. Wastegates don't make a stalling or fluttering sound. They just open and close. I have no idea which ricer started spreading this 'wastegate chatter' myth about compressor stalling/fluttering noise, but whoever it is...
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Old 28 Apr 2011, 06:48 (Ref:2871024)   #1348
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So what do you guys think. is their any merit to this supercharger discussion or some kind of hybrid turbo charging device.
It seems all too coincidental to be ignored
I find the supercharger theory completely unbelievable.

As I explained earlier, the terms "superpercharged" and "turbocharged" are used interchangeable throughout the rule book as translation for the French term "suralimenté".
Same examples:
  • article 5.1.3.b: "moteur essence suralimenté" -> "turbo/supercharged engines (gasoline)"
  • article 5.1.3.c: "moteur diesel suralimenté" -> "superpercharged engine (diesel)"
  • article 5.2: "moteurs suralimentés" -> "turbocharged engine"
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Originally Posted by Audi Racer View Post
1. the max displacement for supercharger is 3.7ltr. the audi is 3.7ltre v6 with an unspecified "charger"
Why is the fact that Audi uses the maximum allowed displacement a coincidence? Audi did it with the R10, the R15 and R18 and Peugeot did it with both 908s.
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if not a supercharger can we agree thats the turbo is located in the cylinder bank.
Yes, everything points to (a) turbo(s) located in the V.

Maybe this extract from an official Audi UK press release will stop your fantasy:
Quote:
The R18 features a much smaller engine which is regulation driven, a 3.7 litre V6 turbo diesel, so from that side it is quite different from the 5.5 litre V10 we had before but still using the same pioneering Audi TDI technology.
source: http://www.allanmcnish.com/blog/2011...pirations-.asp
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Old 28 Apr 2011, 10:16 (Ref:2871098)   #1349
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Have these R18 engine shots been posted?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/phunkshon/5664141842/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/phunkshon/5664137436/
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Old 28 Apr 2011, 10:20 (Ref:2871101)   #1350
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Audi press release:

The new Audi R18 TDI with which Audi targets its tenth victory in the famous 24 Hours of Le Mans on June 11/12 is ready today with "tomorrow’s” technology. During development of the new LMP1 sports car the integration and future electrification of the powertrain and various possible concepts for energy recuperation have been taken into account.

"We are very conscious of such systems,” explains Head of Audi Motorsport Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich. "In our opinion, just as soon as this technology proves to be the most efficient we will use it at Le Mans.”

Although diesel engines have been repeatedly restricted by the regulations since their victorious introduction in 2006, Audi relies on TDI power once again for its new LMP1. "Audi invented the TDI engine and is convinced that this technology remains one of the most efficient and modern forms to power a car – especially at Le Mans where engines with high specific power, low fuel consumption and low emissions are a necessity.”

New regulations devised by the Automobile Club de L’Ouest (ACO) and introduced this year dictate significantly smaller engines. Audi has chosen a particularly compact 3.7 liter V6 TDI engine, which is about 25 per cent lighter than the V10 TDI power plant previously fitted to the older R15 TDI, and which leaves all options open for the technicians with regard to electrification and energy recuperation. "This would not be the case with a V8, for example, which is also permitted by the regulations,” explains Ulrich Baretzky, Head of Engine Development at Audi Sport.

However, Audi does not only surprise with its extremely compact engine. The concept is also innovative for an LMP1 sports car. To lower the center of gravity as much as possible and to improve airflow through the car, the exhaust manifolds were migrated from the left and right hand sides of the engine to sit between the two cylinder banks. "Hot side inside” is the name given to this concept by specialists, which was implemented in similar form in Formula 1 in the 1980s. But the V6 TDI engine powering the Audi R18 TDI, which has a cylinder angle of 120 degrees and thus an extremely low center of gravity, is technically generations further along the line and is also a technology-demonstrator for future production engines.

In contrast to previous Audi Le Mans sports cars, which all had twin turbochargers, the R18 TDI is quite logically now only fitted with a single turbocharger that also sits above the engine and draws its air directly through the air scoop mounted on the roof. "In this way we are able to convert the dynamic pressure generated at high speeds with minimal losses into power,” explains Dr. Martin Mühlmeier, Head of Technology at Audi Sport.

The mono-turbo concept developed in cooperation with Garrett was only made possible by the variable turbine geometry (VTG) already used victoriously in the R15 TDI. "Otherwise the response characteristics of such a large turbocharger would just be too bad,” explains Baretzky.

The concept was continued logically through a single pipe exhaust that exits at the rear of the R18 TDI below the new fin which is stipulated by the regulations. "This also stands for Audi ultra lightweight technology,” says Baretzky, "since we save components and weight – for example for a second diesel particle filter.”

Audi Sport has worked since July 2009 on the innovative engine concept for which numerous new routes had to be explored. To control the enormous ignition pressures and loads now only distributed between six cylinders, a unique method of cooling the cylinder heads was developed for the aluminum power unit, a concept that could also be interesting in the future for production.

Owing to the compact engine and uncluttered flanks, the airflow from the coolers can now exit practically unobstructed through the rear end. "We could increase the aerodynamic efficiency of the car as a result,” says Martin Mühlmeier, Head of Technology at Audi Sport. This aspect is even more important than ever before at Le Mans due to the reduction in engine power – for the Audi R18 TDI more than 397 kW (540 hp).

Another unique aspect of the new Le Mans sports car is its unusual sound. The Audi R18 TDI is probably the quietest race car Audi Sport has ever built. "Noise is unused energy,” stresses Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich who is delighted by the whispering murmur of the R18 TDI. "The sound is unique,” raves Le Mans record winner Tom Kristensen. "It’s hard to describe. You have to hear it yourself. I think it’s fantastic.”
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