[Tech Issue] Run-offs - What's the answer?

[Peralta]

Originally Posted by cerdic

Good point. It would also bring back some of the unpredictabilty if drivers made the occasional mistake and whacked a wall!

The problem with that is that it would litter the track with debri causing yellows not to mention the safety car.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by wnut

Start the gravel close to the edge of the track and make sure it is ploughed so that the cars dig in and get beached when exploring the stuff.
Lately gravel traps seem to be very hard, and everyone can just drive through them. Bad maintenance?

There should be two metres or so of grass before the gravel trap to give cars that have merely run wide a chance of recovering. The purpose of a gravel trap is not to punish drivers who, for whatever reason, leave the track, it's to keep them out of the barriers. If a large gravel trap can be driven through, no problem - it will still stop cars that are going sideways, have damaged suspension, etc. Digging in is to be avoided wherever possible as it can cause a car to roll; a slow, controlled stop is desirable, but that depends on the gravel trap being large enough which may not always be possible for space reasons

[wnut]

Bloody tire barriers - there needs to be some form of debris retention.

This is just a re-run of the Rafael Sperafico accident!

Nothing learned!

Guido Falaschi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PagWQRjvOQc

and now a different accident with Sandra Harrison-Moore at Goodwood with an open cockpit car, but also a tyre barrier.

[IceMan_PJN]

Originally Posted by wnut

*bumping fifteen-month-dead topic

<voice="Marty McFly"> Wait a minute, Doc. Ah..., are you telling me... that you built a time machine... out of a keyboard? </voice>

[wnut]

Originally Posted by IceMan_PJN

<voice="Marty McFly"> Wait a minute, Doc. Ah..., are you telling me... that you built a time machine... out of a keyboard? </voice>

Sure why not just start a new one, it is so much easier!

[ECW Dan Selby]

There's some good debate on this topic. I'd forgot all about it.

Still begs the question...

Selby

[Marbot]

I understand that the Paul Ricard circuit has colour coded run off areas with varying degrees of tyre killing tarmac, depending on which colour tarmac that you find yourself running off into.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I had this really out of the box idea after Wheldon's accident. I had an idea using magnetism and elevated grandstands. The idea was for Indycar/oval racing essentially, but I guess it could apply to other catagories:

How about having a large plate of metal on the floor of the car, with a 'magnet' run-off strip as the final section of run-off. It'd give you one last chance to scrub off speed before the impact.

I figured Americans/fans of oval racing would still want the 'stadium feel' - so how about the Abu Dhabi style elevated grandstand so the cars slide underneath as their run-off?

You'd basically be moving the grandstands slightly back and elevating them to maintain the 'stadium' feel.

Selby
--
I've always been open to hearing criticisms/feedback for this idea. I'm sure there's 100 reasons why it couldn't work, but maybe we need some different thinking...

[neiltb]

how about tarmac, but a rule that if 4 wheels go off track, you get a pass through the pits penalty each time you use it.

[ECW Dan Selby]

The trouble with that is what happens if you spin? Isn't a spin already enough of a punishment?

But then what about having to investigate that?

We certainly don't want more 'The stewards will investigate this after the race' jobs.

Selby

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by wnut

Bloody tire barriers - there needs to be some form of debris retention.
This is just a re-run of the Rafael Sperafico accident!
Nothing learned!
Guido Falaschi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PagWQRjvOQc
and now a different accident with Sandra Harrison-Moore at Goodwood with an open cockpit car, but also a tyre barrier.

Were you at Goodwood?
Are you a qualified crash investigator?
Have you examined footage of that accident?
What's your point?

[barnettracing]

Also wnut. Do you not realise that the tyre barriers at Goodwood are completely different to those in the Falaschi accident. For one they are held together in a 'conveyer belt'.

As MGDavid has said, are you an accident investigator? Can you prove that the tyre barrier caused the accident/fatality?

I would argue that tyre barriers are a better form of barrier than armco/concrete as they allow some give. Simple physics says that this 'give' absorbs some of the energy of a crashing car resulting in a less violent catapult back across the circuit. I'd much rather hit a tyre barrier than a concrete wall or your other suggestion, catch fencing! Tell you what, you get in a racing car and fire yourself at some cheese-grater like wire fencing. It has caused numerous injuries and fatalities. It is far from safe. The only way to completely prevent cars from bouncing round in an accident is to have run offs so huge that the car comes to an eventually halt thanks to friction. However, that is a completely impractical solution.

[Sodemo]

I hear that Monaco has had further alterations to the track this year for 2012, mainly to do with barriers. Apparently, they are installing the techpro barriers and have put down super grippy tarmac on the run offs.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Also wnut. Do you not realise that the tyre barriers at Goodwood are completely different to those in the Falaschi accident. For one they are held together in a 'conveyer belt'.

I would argue that tyre barriers are a better form of barrier than armco/concrete as they allow some give. Simple physics says that this 'give' .

The last time I hit anything at Goodwood it was an earth bank with grass on top. OK so it was a very long time ago, but I'm pretty sure I would have preferred a tyre barrier.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

I would argue that tyre barriers are a better form of barrier than armco/concrete as they allow some give.

Yes and no, and therein lies the problem. It depends entirely on the type of accident you're having. For a high-speed shallow impact you'd prefer concrete as you will slide off. For a slightly higher angle you want armco as this will give a little but you still slide off. Anything involving a more sudden stop, then you want as much retardation as possible. Tyres work well, as do Recticel type barriers. In this last case you also want lots of gravel to slow you down, unless you're in a saloon going sideways in which case it can make you roll. If that's the case, tarmac can be a better option as long as you have all of your tyres/wheels intact and it's not wet or oily.

The difficulty here is that different vehicles and types of incidents ideally require different solutions and you can only build for what you anticipate or with the benefit of hindsight. It should be remembered also that the most important thing is to contain the vehicle within the circuit so that it doesn't become a greater threat to marshals and spectators.

[JimW]

We need to remember that the barrier has two principal functions:

• Stop a vehicle from endangering spectators
• Stop a vehicle in a way which minimises danger to the driver.

(Minimising damage to the vehicle is a long way down compared to those two.)

Of the two main reasons, the first is paramount. Le Mans 1955 anyone.

Ideally, of course, both aims will be met by a well designed structure but never forget the first.

Regards

Jim