The Stairway to.......

**GTRMagic** · 7 May 2009, 11:04 (Ref:2457138)

I know it only takes 2 cars to make a race.. but I can remember the days wandering out to Amaroo Park and seeing 30+ Formula Fords, competitive Formula Fords, try to beat each other with a passion and intensity that made that class phenomenal to watch. You saw 10 cars in a position for a win, 10 genuine chances at speed... slip streaming, fights for position, plenty of biff... and a seemigly endless supply of willing blokes to take on the established guys.

The difference between then and today too is that the stalwarts stayed in the class, like an Andrew Gubb, like a John Blanchard or a Geoff Walters or a Richard Steigler.. or mainstayers in classes like Peter Fitzgerald, like Kent Youlden, like Mark Gibbs... so the new kids on the block could rock up and take on the people who had been there and done that seemingly forever, but the thing you knew was that if the new bloke beat the old blokes, he must be a bit of all right, and someone worth watching.

These blokes raced for quite literally sheep stations... for their driving careers.

Fast forward to now, and for some reason, the intensity isnt there. Not just in Formula Ford, but in Aussie Racing Cars, in Production Cars, in GT and the like. The driver appears less important now than the machinery, or more succinctly, the machinery the budgets can buy to stay ahead....

Its funny but I can still remember a story in RCN with the Cutts Bros when they explained they took 2 years off working for a living, on the dole, to go Formula Vee racing full time... who talks about that kind of commitment nowadays...

Anecdotally, there appears to be a dominance of drivers in seats because of funding more than driver talent. There are notable exceptions, Mr Winterbottom wouldnt have gotten to his FPR seat without the help of Ford, KartStars, SBR, Mark Roworth etc... but where are these kinds of schemes today?

Time has moved on, the motor industry is on its knees, Fiat looks like the new superpower...

So what is the solution, what do we need to do to get the racing tuned up with some serious depth... to present a ladder of motorsport in this country than can see a driver get to V8Supercars, or F1 or wherever their fancy is tickled........

We also need to understand the green environment, to maybe build on Ross Palmer's Formula Green nomenclature, to try not to completely destroy the ozone layer while going round in circles...

The challenge.. should you choose to accept it, is what needs to happen to the sub classes (i.e. everything EXCEPT V8Supercar and its derivatives) to get more talent in seats, to get more seats going...

No series is sacrosanct either....

They all have their part to play...

Amaroo Park · 7 May 2009, 11:10 (Ref:2457150)

In the good old days we not only had the Touring Car Championship but we had the AMSCAR series from Amaroo which was always televised. And they would show everything from Formula Vee to the Group A. Your right about the older guys, blokes like Bernie Hanley or Frank Klienig (unsure of the speeling) in Vee's who had been running them for years and were always front runners.

I would think it is time for Another Amscar type series where everyone gets a good shot at getting there sponsor on TV. Then run a full program of Vee's, Formula Fords, Production Cars, Sports Sedans, HQ's, Touring Cars and Fomula 3. Thats what we used to get in the good old days

F J Nedos · 7 May 2009, 11:33 (Ref:2457169)

Like most sports, money ruins it. I don't know of a solution, other than what Top Gear showed in Finland. The one where they held social motorsport weekends where the car could not value a certain amount. They looked like they had heaps of fun.

So a salary or budget cap for each motorsport category, perhaps less than you'd expect. But reality differs...

**GTRMagic** · 7 May 2009, 11:36 (Ref:2457172)

But does a budget cap work? I guess we will find out in F1 (thanks to the Kelvinmonster's input...hehe) soon enough

The question too is whether we need to tweak our non-V8Supercar categories to get competitors back, to get interest in the racing.

Watching Bernie Haenhle and Frank Kleinig and Stephen Butcher and co was amazing stuff... how can we get back to that... 3 wide across the top of Bitupave, just super good the whole race thru

On a budget of $3.50 it seemed...

Amaroo Park · 7 May 2009, 11:45 (Ref:2457179)

The problem is all other motor sport other than V8 Supercars have been hung out to dry and they are not in good shape and haven't been for a long time. And it is not just circuit racing. CAMS inability to mange the sport is seriously damaging the ARC. Once a great championship with the likes of George Fury, Ross Dunkerton, Colin Bond, Gregg Carr, David Officer and the considerable talent of Geoff Portman. Now look at Rallying now it is not a shadow of its former self. Neal Bates and Simon Evans are fine champions and credit to the sport but they have been until this year the only competitive cars for a few years now.

Back to circuit racing you need to find a promoter that is willing to take risks and have a go at growing something other than V8 Supercars. In the old days the ARDC came from a position of power due to it's running of Bathurst. That was the lead in to get channel 7 to televise the ATCC and the Amscar series. So who is there now who can build a relationship with someone like channel 10 or SBS and market a FULL race meeting. Have 5 or 6 different categories on the one card and televise all of there races that would be a good start. Then as has happened in the past there would be a trickle down to the lower categories where guys would see it as a way of getting on the TV.

The other thing is the Sport is in critical need of having money spent on permanent race tracks. Tracks that can be used all year round day in day out. Adelaide, Hamilton, Surfers are fine tracks but it is not where club motor sport or young guys are going to be able to learn there trade by doing club meetings and private practice etc.

Senna05 · 7 May 2009, 11:45 (Ref:2457180)

Think about this for a moment... Up until 1996, alot of other categories were shown F2A on Seven during the ATCC telecast. Now, I was not and still am not a fan of 7, but....

Perhaps Channel 10 were the best thing ever for V8SC and the worst thing ever for all other forms of motorsport. Was it not the desire for exposure that drove Mr Palmer to take his support categories on the Procar tour, to get other Television exposure that he could not on Ch 10?

Trackside was a way back, but I guess by this stage, where else would the money come from, other than SORF's?

The issue is, I think, value for money. And, likewise, the will be no television unless there is quality. A sad Cache 22.

Green Hornet · 7 May 2009, 12:07 (Ref:2457200)

Times change - there is no doubt about that. Forgetting the V8 Supercar circus for the moment, how would you sell another series to a network when nobody goes and watches?

The weekend after this at Phillip Island there will 39 Saloon Cars, 26 GTs, 25 Porsches and another 34 German exotics in Regularity, 18 Commodore Cup cars, and 14 F3s will be racing but nobody (in crowd terms) will go. It will all be on TV at some stage but the categories will be paying for the viewers' pleasure.

A true motor racing fan know when and where they (and other meetings) are on yet most of them won't go either. Why?

No shortage of meeting either - state champs, irace etc - yet same story.

touring fan01 · 7 May 2009, 12:38 (Ref:2457229)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaroo Park

CAMS inability to mange the sport is seriously damaging the ARC. Once a great championship with the likes of George Fury, Ross Dunkerton, Colin Bond, Gregg Carr, David Officer and the considerable talent of Geoff Portman. Now look at Rallying now it is not a shadow of its former self. Neal Bates and Simon Evans are fine champions and credit to the sport but they have been until this year the only competitive cars for a few years now.

That a bit unfair on CAMS...haven't you noticed that rallying, right across the world, is little more than a shadow of its former self?

Amaroo Park · 7 May 2009, 13:55 (Ref:2457269)

No I don't think it is unfair on CAMS. The state motor racing finds it's self in at the moment is due to the Confederation of Australian Motorsport

Amaroo Park · 7 May 2009, 13:59 (Ref:2457270)

Oh and WRC is in a mess due to the FIA of which CAMS is a member

racer69 · 7 May 2009, 16:31 (Ref:2457325)

Part of the problem in a way is that CAMS has 'shifted to responsibility' (or is that blame?) from themselves onto private promoters, through the sale of Category Management Rights.

It's not their problem anymore, they just charge a fee and wait to get paid.

Another problem is how 'European' the Australian scene has become, especially when it comes to the likes of Fujitsu's, Formula Ford and Formula 3 (and previously Carrera Cup) in that there are specialist preperation teams (Sonic for example, BRM) that require drivers to bring a budget & 'turn up when needed'. These setups are obviously a professional lot, but it all costs money. Until the late 90s Formula Ford's could be run competitively by the private owners.

Perhaps running the Fujitsu Series on standalone weekends could be a start? Would it get TV coverage though?

V8SA have shown that they aren't really interested in sharing TV coverage, particularly this year where Cameron Levick was quoted in an AA interview as saying that they were seperating the V8 coverage from the support races....

Another issue is that Australian TV networks no longer produce motorsport coverage in Australia. V8TV do all the V8Supercar aligned stuff and sell it to 7, whilst AVE do the business for Speedweek, Inside Speed etc etc..... and they all do it for a price....

The Amaroo races were particularly good in that some 'support race' drivers got abit of a following through the regular TV coverage. Bernie Hahnle a primary example as mentioned... some guys like Terry Shiel & Barry Jones were able to prove their talents at Amaroo as well in touring cars even though they didn't have alot of budget (preventing them from running the ATCC)

NewsStalker · 7 May 2009, 19:49 (Ref:2457474)

And don't forget how CAMS also allowed other series to become dilute with the likes of one make series - who can forget (maybe we really should) Lotus, Mirage (Mks I and II), Mini, Mazda etc etc

These did just as much, if not more harm, then they did bringing in the likes of supposed 'special' guest drivers.

David Brand · 7 May 2009, 21:49 (Ref:2457550)

What if some of the famous retired V8 drivers took full time drives in these categories? Would it drum up the interest and increase the value for TV networks to televise it?

A lack of money hides a driver's talent all the way from F1 to club level kart racing. Talent can only get you so far, so what we see is those kids with truckloads of cash move into these middle categories, only to flood them with poor racecraft and unexciting viewing.

Where I think a series could really benefit is to grab a few of our famous, well liked drivers and put them in a car over the summer off season. I believe there was a series back in the day that did exactly this?
-Take the initiative and put motorsport in the viewing public's faces while they wait for the V8 season to start again.

I think the drawback for even avid motorsport fans like us, is travelling to a race meeting that only includes traditional support categories means they are unlikely to know many of the drivers,or be interested in watching a few rich kids play with their toys.

Nothing excites a viewer more than seeing a close battle at the front...or even all the way through the field. And the only way to achieve this is to fill the fields with talented, determined drivers rather than those that can afford the privilege. I see so many talented drivers in kart racing that will never even make it to state or national karting level because of the immense amount of money some families put into it. Things need to change in the way we choose our champions.

mountainstar · 7 May 2009, 22:46 (Ref:2457589)

On the lower levels the sport has gotten too complex for what it actually is. Mimicking F1 in Formula Ford is stupid. In order to be competitive in Formula Ford you have to have the latest gear from France, highly refined in a wind tunnel and a cockpit only prepubescent teenagers can fit in.

I'd like to see a simple car for Formula Ford. Safe but simple.

Malfunction Junction · 8 May 2009, 00:29 (Ref:2457616)

Not all that long ago, a major national championship series fell to it's knees. The promotion of the series was taken on by a race track promoter, who ran all rounds of the year's series at their own race track. The following year, the majority of rounds were at the same track, with others spread lightly.

The series was forced to evolve yet again afterwards, but in those couple of years it appeared to regain some life.

One of the things that made AMSCAR work was that it gave an outlet for that now extinct species, the "Bathurst Privateer". Those guys who could only afford to run at Bathurst, with a few local races for preparation & practice.

With other categories, run the events at a single circuit to reduce travel costs, engage a relatively captive audience and see how it goes. You could even run it all on a Saturday & put on a band to attract a bit of an audience.

Just think, a few attempts at a Formula Ford Festival were held in the 90's, you could have 4 FF Fetes and gather everybody for a FF Festival at the end of the year. Having Kent/Zetec/Duratec cars is a bit of an issue, but if you ran the festival as a stand alone event, you could run them together and put up a trophy for each.

Even if I have crossed concepts here......

**GTRMagic** · 8 May 2009, 01:32 (Ref:2457645)

I dont think they are crossed... its an interesting consolidation.

I liked the Winton 300 in Production Cars... it wasnt usually televised.. but had a huge field, plenty of different types of cars, and they were really competitive given it was a major long distance race

The Formula Ford Festival makes sense too.. where do you run it, who do you invite? There are probably only 30 cars in the country that can run Duratec... what do you do to get a bigger field than that, and repecharges and the like...

Its all possible... but what would be the best to see?

Chatters · 9 May 2009, 01:26 (Ref:2458346)

I think the only place for something like a Formula Ford Fesitval would be Bathurst... Imagine 55 FFs going flat out around the Mountain...!

**GTRMagic** · 9 May 2009, 01:33 (Ref:2458347)

I dont know what changed on the Bathurst circuit for the FF's not to be invited back. I can recall seeing the underside of one that seemed to have been running too low a ride height... dragging its bum on the ground at a few places it seems...

The walls arent particularly forgiving to spindly open wheelers... maybe they would need an air fence?

The challenge is do you run it to a local formula, international, Kent/Duratec/Zetec...

You could do something like that for F3... at least then there may be some international interest?

racer69 · 9 May 2009, 09:26 (Ref:2458439)

A sort of Asian F3 festival might work, as Asia & Australia both run a step behind the European spec cars (which would count them out).... it would be advantageous to have something that could attract the likes of Hartley & Ricciardo back for a one-off meeting like this..... you'd ideally like to attract the likes of Briscoe & Dixon too, but they wouldn't run F3 machinery.

Sort of like back with the old Rothmans Series for F5000, Australian internationals like Alan Jones and Vern Schuppan would compete

Bottom line is though its got buggery of happening, partly because CAMS just don't appear to care these days about anything! (although i do applaud their AMSF foundation)

**GTRMagic** · 9 May 2009, 10:03 (Ref:2458452)

I have heard the AMSF described as a creative method of tax minimisation, not so much as a driver development tool

TSR · 9 May 2009, 10:23 (Ref:2458459)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaroo Park

Oh and WRC is in a mess due to the FIA of which CAMS is a member

Very good piont.

Amaroo Park · 10 May 2009, 08:23 (Ref:2458937)

Wakefield Park would be a good place to a series like an Amscar series. Spectator friendly, not that far from Sydney and Canberra. In Victoria you would have to hold it a place like Winton.

alfacors · 11 May 2009, 06:55 (Ref:2459767)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The walls arent particularly forgiving to spindly open wheelers... maybe they would need an air fence?

Seems fine for full grids of Formula Vees though......

Mr Intolerant · 11 May 2009, 12:01 (Ref:2460033)

CASH,

Numero one, two and three problem in making motorsport successful.

1. CASH for TV.

Long before Kerry's pilot's kidney was available for return, the network pencil necks worked out that they could gouge cash from motorsport in return for time on the idiot box. Now we have the V8TV/7 Partnership sodomising those who want TV and a spot on the glam tour around $500k for the chance. So say a nice 24 cars grid and 8 rounds = 2600 per car per round to get the tele coverage there goes $20k of my race budget. Add in management fees, insurances, licences means I have spent around $30K just for the ability to put a car in a series with some decent coverage. No wheels turned yet.

2. CASH from wood ducks.

Daddy - that peasant with the old car and talent is still faster than me! It's just not fair may I please have another $100,000 to go faster. With the socialist "appearance money" agenda of V8's where is the imperative to hire a guy that can get the car up the front and earn prize money or heaven forbid keep it off the wall? Now I can have Johnny Woodduck steer the car, pay me $500K and damage and still bank my $900K app money for strong 39th place finishes.

Motorsport is about competition but the franchise system makes these guys a protected species. If it was a prize money system then maybe the TV teams would spend some time and money talent spotting and supporting some decent up an comers in an effort to get a result. (I understand there are exceptions in this category stones/morris etc.)

3. Cash to run.

Why the [consentualactofphysicallybondingwithafellowhuman] would any sponsor pay $150K to sponsor a FF or Porsche or 2 Mini's or 3 Aussies or 1/2 Fujitsu or anything like it when you get average TV and can get a secondary significant AFL/NRL or major A-league sponsorship. It just doesn't make sense.

Our sport cost too much to be fully funded by other people. The other point is just about no other sport in the country gets the junior grades sponsored on its own merit. No one is breaking down doors to give the Williamstown juniors or the Marrickville U16's 25K per year. So maybe we are just having a lend of ourselves.

So Mr. Intolerants magic formula.

1. Encourage an affordable decent TV coverage by pooling resources or perhaps teaming with other partners (Motorcycling Australia anyone)
2. Get a structure with series sponsorship that pays prize money, you know plastic folding **** that i can spend on my ride and my crew.
3. Make the damn thing inexpensive enough to allow people to introduce new sponsors to the sport at acceptable levels to perhaps get them hooked for the journey.
4. Have the cars driveable in a race situation - not follow the leader.

Now after reading the forums (I have no first hand experience of the series) I feel I may get my bottom spanked but Aussie Legends comes about as close as damn to anything in this country to my goals. If we could get a decent series sponsor and some cash for the players I reckon it would not be too far away.