[Tech Issue] Pirelli-The Tyre Story..

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

Changing spec tyres during the middle of the year is a joke, especially with all the testing restrictions that we have no

This is my complaint also.. To alter tyres part way through a season is ridiculous, I do not wish for Pirelli to pander to anyone..They can build a tyre to last a whole season, that is obvious to anyone that is paying attention...

Just produce tyres that last longer than a couple of laps.. That drivers can *race* on because we want racing, not dancing around the bloody maypole..

Now get on with it....

[Spritle]

Gee, a mid season rules change because someone is whinging, that's a novel concept...the fizzy drink fools are behind it I bet...

I seem to recall a very recent (2011) mid season rules change which resulted in a ban on engine mapping changes between quali & the race that was most likely designed to slow down the same fizzy drinks salesmen...

...I wonder who was winging then? I also wonder why there was no outcry about it?

[Razzzor]

Do you all honestly believe that Pirelli are changing the tyres because of a few RB media comments? Come on.

They're changing them because the racing is becoming a joke and everyone is complaining about it, even Bernie. Pirelli won't give a damn about RB and who wins the championship, I very much doubt they have vested interest in helping a particular team win a 4th title. It's much better for the sport to have Kimi or Teflonso win the title this year than Vettel again.

The tyre changes they made in the previous race EVERYONE agreed to, including Ferrari. It didn't seem to help at all, of course.

The only team that really gets favoritism in recent years is Ferrari, everyone knows that. The fact they get a bigger cut than all other teams makes that clear.

It does suck for Ferrari and Lotus that they got they have the most conservative cars on the tyres... ironic then that those are the two teams complaining the most about the changes...
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...-tyre-changes/
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...modifications/

They're not thinking about the racing spectacle, they're thinking they should be the ones continuing to win.

Personally, regardless of who's doing well, if I were running Pirelli I'd probably change the tyres as well. I want to see drivers going flat out, not the GP3 speeds we've got now. 4 pit stops I don't mind, but I do mind them all absolutely nursing the cars the entire race.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

It does suck for Ferrari and Lotus that they got they have the most conservative cars on the tyres... ironic then that those are the two teams complaining the most about the changes...
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...-tyre-changes/
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...modifications/

They're not thinking about the racing spectacle, they're thinking they should be the ones continuing to win.

They don't want to lose the advantage they now have over RB, it's an obvious reaction.

As it is Ferrari are now wading in, with an attack on RB.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107461

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

Changing spec tyres during the middle of the year is a joke, especially with all the testing restrictions that we have now.

Back when the tyre war was on, teams could trundle around their local track time and time again to get to grips with new tyres. Now they'll be forced to deal with the new spec on a Friday. Won't it be hilarious if the new spec is too hard to get to grips with and the next race is a shambles?

Some teams could afford to do endless tyre testing and this was often funded by the tyre manufacturer. It wasn't unknown for 100,000 kms of pre-season tyre testing to be done by a team or teams that were more likely to be up at the front. The mid-field and back-marker teams didn't get the best tyres or their testing funded by the tyre manufacturer. They got the left-overs.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Just produce tyres that last longer than a couple of laps.. That drivers can *race* on because we want racing, not dancing around the bloody maypole..

The tyres do actually last a lot more than that....on some cars.

No one is actually suggesting how long the tyres should last for, or which cars these distances apply to.

20 laps? 30 laps? 40 laps The whole race? Mercedes? Ferrari? Which?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Pirelli say they aren't breaching the rules.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107475

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Some teams could afford to do endless tyre testing and this was often funded by the tyre manufacturer. It wasn't unknown for 100,000 kms of pre-season tyre testing to be done by a team or teams that were more likely to be up at the front. The mid-field and back-marker teams didn't get the best tyres or their testing funded by the tyre manufacturer. They got the left-overs.



The tyres do actually last a lot more than that....on some cars.

No one is actually suggesting how long the tyres should last for, or which cars these distances apply to.

20 laps? 30 laps? 40 laps The whole race? Mercedes? Ferrari? Which?

I am not sure I understand the "left over tyre" comment what is that really, what does it mean ???

The tyres should last a reasonable amount of time without falling apart..Do you want to listen to race commentary and engineers who talk about tyres for two hours, I don't.. Pirelli do a fantastic job otherwise they would not be there..

Fans need a bit less yick yack and more turn up the wick to 100% and lets get it on !

[wolfhound]

The FIA have told Pirelli that they can only make changes to prevent tyre failure as opposed to reducing the number of pit stops for new tyres.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107487

Should make the teams at Enstone & Maranello happy.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

The FIA have told Pirelli that they can only make changes to prevent tyre failure as opposed to reducing the number of pit stops for new tyres.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107487

Should make the teams at Enstone & Maranello happy.

Absolutely the right stance for the FIA to take anything else would amount to changing the rules mid season. Fancy the FIA handling a highly political situation with integrity. Can't remember the last time

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I am not sure I understand the "left over tyre" comment what is that really, what does it mean ???

You got what you could afford to pay for. i.e. more money - better tyre.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

The tyres should last a reasonable amount of time without falling apart..Do you want to listen to race commentary and engineers who talk about tyres for two hours, I don't.. Pirelli do a fantastic job otherwise they would not be there..

I would prefer to hear less about tyre delamination, certainly.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Fans need a bit less yick yack and more turn up the wick to 100% and lets get it on !

If that means only watching the Red Bull car performing at 100%, fine.

Originally Posted by wolfhound

The FIA have told Pirelli that they can only make changes to prevent tyre failure as opposed to reducing the number of pit stops for new tyres.

I agree with that, 100%.

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Should make the teams at Enstone & Maranello happy.

It should. They made a car that suited the regulations. Others made cars that had the same problems that they had previously had with other tyres.

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Absolutely the right stance for the FIA to take anything else would amount to changing the rules mid season. Fancy the FIA handling a highly political situation with integrity. Can't remember the last time

It all depends on which side of the fence Ferrari are on.

But the regulation is clear about what can happen with regard to tyre twiddiling.

[JeremySmith]

Scott surely the tyres are all built to the same specs? I know during the MS domination era he was been supplied *special* tyres by Bridgstone, which I still don't understand completely to be honest..

Maybe you could explain ?

I do not want to see any one team be it Red Bull of whoever to gain an advantage by applying pressure to Pirelli to have to make changes, but what I would like is tyres that are safe and not talked about as much, and that allow the drivers to race..

There are two schools of thought here of course.. One is that Ferrari and Lotus got it right and the other is that all the other teams did not..

[andy666]

F1 show last night (Friday) they said Pirelli were keeping this years compounds but reverting to last years construction Straight over my head , anyone know how much difference this will make . I thought the compounds were the problem .

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by andy666

F1 show last night (Friday) they said Pirelli were keeping this years compounds but reverting to last years construction Straight over my head , anyone know how much difference this will make . I thought the compounds were the problem .

If you go to my post #374 there's an Autosport article, which I posted that explains how tyre consruction affects tyre deformation, which in turn affects suspension geometry and airflow over the car.

[andy666]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If you go to my post #374 there's an Autosport article, which I posted that explains how tyre consruction affects tyre deformation, which in turn affects suspension geometry and airflow over the car.

Thanks , must learn to to read previous posts properly ! The teams have some work to do then .

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Scott surely the tyres are all built to the same specs?

Yes, the Pirelli tyres are exactly the same, regardless of which team they are given to.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I know during the MS domination era he was been supplied *special* tyres by Bridgstone, which I still don't understand completely to be honest..

Maybe you could explain ?

Bridgestone and Ferrari basically worked side by side during the Schumacher/Ferrari domination period. Schumacher, Irvine, Barrichello, Gene but mainly Badoer, did hundreds of thousands of kilometers of tyre testing, pre-season, then did a whole lot more tyre testing during the season. The fuel bill alone must have been astronomical, and then, of course, were the numbers of tyres made and used for those tests of which only a few saw any real action. Jordan, Toyota and Minardi got what was left out of any tyres abandoned by Ferrari. There couldn't be a less fair way of going racing.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I do not want to see any one team be it Red Bull of whoever to gain an advantage by applying pressure to Pirelli to have to make changes, but what I would like is tyres that are safe and not talked about as much, and that allow the drivers to race..

I don't like the tyres being talked about in a negative way. I'm pretty sure that Pirelli will sort out any real tyre problems for the upcoming races. Pirelli also have the option of using the harder compounds at races that previously would have used softer tyres, so, in that respect, Pirelli can influence tyre compound choice.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

There are two schools of thought here of course.. One is that Ferrari and Lotus got it right and the other is that all the other teams did not..

Isn't that just one school of thought?

[Knowlesy]

And it is wrong. Pirelli have specifically stated now that their tyres were designed to hamper Red Bull.

Nobody has got anything wrong. Pirelli have went out of their way to destroy one team and have taken others with them.

You can say that Ferrari's Bridgestone deal was unfair (it wasn't really, just annoying) but there was a flipside that bit them on the arse when the tyre regs changed and loads of teams defected to Michelin at the same time. This also left Bridgestone trailing a bit in 2006. No unfairness, simply ebb and flow of competition.

It is far better to have teams working with their chosen tyre manufacturer to make as good a car as possible than this current ****-weak excuse for a series.

[Bononi]

Sometimes one have to wonder why we still watch F1...

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Sometimes one have to wonder why we still watch F1...

Judging by falling television viewers both around the world and in the UK there are less of us watching...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Judging by falling television viewers both around the world and in the UK there are less of us watching...

I wonder if that's partly due to the artificial nature of F1, i.e. DRS and multiple tyre stops and the fact there are just too many races for the casual race fan to keep up with?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

And it is wrong. Pirelli have specifically stated now that their tyres were designed to hamper Red Bull.

What utter rubbish. How could Pirelli know about the dynamic characteristics of the Red Bull car before testing started in February? The tyres are the same now as they were then.

Pirelli have stated that their tyres 'coincidentally' rein in the performance of a particular car. It is very dishonest of you to say that the tyres were designed specifically to hinder the Red Bull team.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Nobody has got anything wrong. Pirelli have went out of their way to destroy one team and have taken others with them.

Find any article that specifically states that Pirelli deliberately designed tyres to hinder the performance of the Red Bull car.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

You can say that Ferrari's Bridgestone deal was unfair (it wasn't really, just annoying) but there was a flipside that bit them on the arse when the tyre regs changed and loads of teams defected to Michelin at the same time. This also left Bridgestone trailing a bit in 2006. No unfairness, simply ebb and flow of competition.

Ferrari's tyre deal with Bridgestone 'specifically' hampered the performance of other cars using Bridgestone tyres at that time. If you happened to have a car as good as the Ferrari was, your particular Bridgestone tyres would see you well down on the time sheets.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

It is far better to have teams working with their chosen tyre manufacturer to make as good a car as possible than this current ****-weak excuse for a series.

Only the chosen one or two teams could afford to work with their chosen tyre company. If you want F1 to be a spending competition again, fine.

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Judging by falling television viewers both around the world and in the UK there are less of us watching...

If it ever gets as low as it was when Ferrari were winning all of the championships, then something ought to be done about it.

As it is now, it's possible that the cars and drivers currently leading the championships are not the ones that some people were hoping would be leading the championships. Including the ones that Pirelli specifically set out to nobble.

[jsTrecu]

Didn't Hembery said something like "without these tyres Vettel would be half a second faster than anybody else" in China or Malaisya ? Don't remeber the exact wording and don't have a source, but it was close to that IIRC.
That's not confirmation that they deliberately did it with that purpose tho... But proves that with "normal" (that work as they should) tyres RBR would still be ahead.

And well, Pirelli know that RBR have more downforce than anybody else (Hembery confirmed it too) and that the whole philosophy of the car is and has always been to sacrifice all the top speed on straights and maximise the speed through the corners. Isn't that enough information to be able to build a tyre that will harm them ?
A lot has been said about this year's rubber, but as I understand it they have built a tyre that overheats and delaminates when it's put under great stress through the corners. That's what cars with high downforce levels do, put more weight on the tyres than others.
Build these tyres on the last year of a set of regulations when you know they can't fight back unless they redesign the whole car and slow the development of next year's car, and voilÃ*!

Coincidence, yeah must be. But if you had to scheme a malicious plan in the shadows to stop RedBull, this one could suit very well.
Either that, or write a new rule that dictates triple World Champions aren't allowed to go over 250km/h, but that would be too obvious and you'd have to rewrite it if Alonso wins this year, so the first plan is better


But people should not worry about RBR domination IMO, after various years trying to slow down this team with different regulation changes and prohibitions, finally something that works has appeared (coincidence or not). I'm sure the FIA and Pirelli are working very hard to figure out how to improve the tyres without benefitting them.

[Marbot]

All of the teams had the same information about how the 2013 Pirelli tyres were going to behave, from the Brazilian GP (where they tested the 2013 hard tyre) onwards.

"The new rubber has a different structure compared to the 2012 tyres, using the current hard compound, but with a quicker warm-up time as well as deliberately faster degradation."

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...yre-compounds/

Any complaints about Pirelli's 2013 tyre philosophy, should have been made then and not now.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

"The new rubber has a different structure compared to the 2012 tyres, using the current hard compound, but with a quicker warm-up time as well as deliberately faster degradation."

And we wonder why F1 is in the state it's in.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

All of the teams had the same information about how the 2013 Pirelli tyres were going to behave, from the Brazilian GP (where they tested the 2013 hard tyre) onwards.

Any complaints about Pirelli's 2013 tyre philosophy, should have been made then and not now.

You have to race on the tyres first don't you..The teams had very little testing..

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

You have to race on the tyres first don't you..The teams had very little testing..

Hey Jememy, how do you get to determine when a Pirelli randomly delaminates?