[Tech Issue] Pirelli-The Tyre Story..

[S griffin]

Tyres should be produced to their maximum and should not be made sub standard. Can you imagine the designers producing sub standard cars for the sake of 'entertainment'

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Tyres should be produced to their maximum and should not be made sub standard. Can you imagine the designers producing sub standard cars for the sake of 'entertainment'

Didn't Bernie want smaller teams to run a generic F1 car?

[S griffin]

I'm not sure. How long ago was it?

[JeremySmith]

I have been reading all of your posts but I believe that Mike Harte has a real and accurate overview on what is happening with the tyre situation ..

[S griffin]

I agree too teams should be free to choose tyres. It used to be a case of making sure you found the right compound to suit your tyre and used to be the art of setting up the car. Now the race is dictated by what Pirelli choose

[JeremySmith]

Yes indeed! build tyres that you believe will do the job they are intended to do give the teams options, let them choose and let them race flat out and to the max ...

[fredd1]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

haha, i am also finding myself bewildered at the unnecessary complexity of this years tire formula. not only do i not get it i really have no interest in figuring it out and less interest in hearing the broadcasters explain it to me.

but yeah, what you outline here is essentially the approach i would like to see as well.

Can't disagree with any of that!

[Mike Harte]

Thank you, Jeremy

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Yes indeed! build tyres that you believe will do the job they are intended to do give the teams options, let them choose and let them race flat out and to the max ...

If only.

[old man]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Yes indeed! build tyres that you believe will do the job they are intended to do give the teams options, let them choose and let them race flat out and to the max ...

I think we would all like to see this in operation but I bet Pirelli would have logistical objections with 21 races spread around as they are. They would have to know well before first practice if they are to have enough of the right tyres at each circuit. Teams would not want to chose too far ahead as car development will influence their choice

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by old man

I think we would all like to see this in operation but I bet Pirelli would have logistical objections with 21 races spread around as they are. They would have to know well before first practice if they are to have enough of the right tyres at each circuit. Teams would not want to chose too far ahead as car development will influence their choice

With the obscene amount of money that CVC/FOM are taking out of motorsport, they could very easily subsidise the tyre supplier for having to take an extra 3 compounds to each race.

However, I don't expect that to happen. Firstly, they are trying to suck as much money out whilst they can, and secondly, FOM and the FIA are far too obsessed with artificial rules that the average viewer finds completely beyond comprehension. It's only so complicated because that proves that it is the pinnacle of motorsport.

[JeremySmith]

So has Bernie been badgering Pirelli again for more spice!
Lewis is unimpressed ..

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns33204.html

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

So has Bernie been badgering Pirelli again for more spice!
Lewis is unimpressed ..

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns33204.html

Of course Hamilton's not impressed; he is the one, after all, who has been the most vocal of all the drivers about the increased tyre pressures that the teams are having to apply, and it was Mercedes that seemed to suffer the most when the rules were applied last year. And he was not able to adapt as easily as Rosberg.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Of course Hamilton's not impressed; he is the one, after all, who has been the most vocal of all the drivers about the increased tyre pressures that the teams are having to apply, and it was Mercedes that seemed to suffer the most when the rules were applied last year. And he was not able to adapt as easily as Rosberg.

He won the WDC, again, without much opposition and Mercedes won the constructors, again so I don't quite get why he is not impressed.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He won the WDC, again, without much opposition and Mercedes won the constructors, again so I don't quite get why he is not impressed.

I think because he enjoys racing against other drivers BJ, and is sick of artificial and dishonest show tactics and introduced pitfalls in what he believes is a sport!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think because he enjoys racing against other drivers BJ, and is sick of artificial and dishonest show tactics and introduced pitfalls in what he believes is a sport!

Fair point wnut. As I posted on the Is Formula 1 broken? thread, I think he should go to IndyCar, the racing is much better than F1 and I'd love to him on an oval.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Fair point wnut. As I posted on the Is Formula 1 broken? thread, I think he should go to IndyCar, the racing is much better than F1 and I'd love to him on an oval.

Massive fish in a very small pond, but hey, I can't disagree! It would be a lot of fun, and would massively boost (no pun intended..!) IC...

Selby

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He won the WDC, again, without much opposition and Mercedes won the constructors, again so I don't quite get why he is not impressed.

He had won or had almost won the Championship by the time that the changes in tyre pressures and the pre-heating of the tyres was brought in last year. His performance did suffer from that point onwards, leading to Rosberg winning the last three races. Hamilton does not like using a tyre that is pressured higher than in previous years, and does complain that he cannot find the right balance in the car.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Tyres should be produced to their maximum and should not be made sub standard. Can you imagine the designers producing sub standard cars for the sake of 'entertainment'

As Formula One cars tend to converge, artificial gimmicks such as the current tires are just a necessity to create differences in performances. More durable tires would lead to even more convergence, hence drivers lapping at the same pass and a further drop in on-track overtaking.
A de-standardization is the only alternative. This would allow for differences in performances without the use artificial gimmicks.

A well-know argument against tire competitions is cost reduction. Standardized tires would be a lot cheaper than a 'tire war'. However, Monisha Kaltenborn expressed an opposite view quite recently.

[chillibowl]

curious then. where were the cost reduction if teams used to get free tires during the tire wars?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

curious then. where were the cost reduction if teams used to get free tires during the tire wars?

I do believe that some, if not most of the teams, did receive free tyres, but I don't think that they all did. However, the problem was the amount that the tyre manufacturers were spending, and some of the teams as well, on testing. Ferrari were constantly pounding around Fiorano with, was it?, Bridgestone which gave them the huge advantage that they enjoyed at that time. So, it wasn't the tyre costs per se, but the amount the teams were spending on the testing.

[chillibowl]

for sure in connection with testing the cost were high. makes sense.

cant recall which rubber Sauber used. i would have thought Bridgestone like Ferrari but they did not race at Indy 2005 so they must have been on Michelin rubber.

the other little tidbit from that article which i thought was interesting was the assertion that BE doesnt want a tire war because he cant sell trackside advertising to more than one supplier. classic Bernie!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

As Formula One cars tend to converge, artificial gimmicks such as the current tires are just a necessity to create differences in performances. More durable tires would lead to even more convergence, hence drivers lapping at the same pass and a further drop in on-track overtaking.
A de-standardization is the only alternative. This would allow for differences in performances without the use artificial gimmicks.

A well-know argument against tire competitions is cost reduction. Standardized tires would be a lot cheaper than a 'tire war'. However, Monisha Kaltenborn expressed an opposite view quite recently.

Pingy, the "convergence theory" as to why we need weird tyres to spice up competition is believable until you look at Indycar, Nascar, GP2, FF and spec series where the cars have much closer performance, yet manage to have really close racing without artificial randomness.

One word, aero, is the problem?

I'd go with Monisha here, every time there is a spec racing part the supplier starts profiteering! Pirelli have certainly managed to capture F1 for their own ends, they are getting the best promotion for the least cost of anyone involved in F1.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

I'd go with Monisha here, every time there is a spec racing part the supplier starts profiteering! Pirelli have certainly managed to capture F1 for their own ends, they are getting the best promotion for the least cost of anyone involved in F1.

Hold on a moment! Pirelli put in a bid to supply tyres to a specification that is dictated by the FIA and FOM, and won the tender process against Michelin. It's not their fault that the FIA and FOM dictates (in a written contract) how the tyres should behave. As Pirelli's Hembury has said on many occasions, they will supply whatever specification that is mandated; it doesn't matter to them. If there told to make tyres that last the whole race, then that's what they will do.

And don't blame Pirelli for the fact that there is a monopoly; again, they have often said that they would welcome direct competition on the track. And unless you have seen the manufacturing costs figures, and know how much the teams have to pay, how can you possibly say they get the best promotion for the least cost. I must admit, I sometimes wonder why Pirelli actually wants to stay in F1 considering all the bad press it gets, and for all the uncalled comments that are made about them. I am sure that they could have a far less stressful life doing something else than making tyres for 22 cars.

[JeremySmith]

I have to agree with Mike here once again ! Pirelli are producing racing tyres that are mandated by FOM and the FIA ..