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Old 23 Jan 2017, 13:07 (Ref:3704467)   #1
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MRL announce Engine Capacity checks

Lifted from an email received, and hopefully good news for most! However, sounds like the checks will be voluntary from the wording?-


"The Historic Touring Car Challenge has enjoyed a year of success with record high grid numbers following last year’s revised entry criteria. The already popular HTCC series now caters for Group A Touring Cars right up to December 1990.

Wiltshire also announced a new certification system to be introduced in 2017, requiring engines to be inspected, measured and sealed to effectively stamp out the risk of engines being over-powered by bore and stroke. Those cars inspected and sealed will be recognised within the results.

Duncan said, “The introduction of this certification programme is a major initiative in the battle to control over-development of engines in the Historic racing world. We will be applying the certification scheme across our Touring Car and 50s Sports Car series”. The announcement has been welcomed by competitors keen to see an end to over-sized engines."
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Old 23 Jan 2017, 15:34 (Ref:3704499)   #2
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Indeed I spotted that too.
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Old 23 Jan 2017, 16:23 (Ref:3704511)   #3
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Well, its not a cheap scenario to remove the head from a BDG (for instance) just to check the bore and stroke. At rebuild, OK....

There is technology available that can do the measuring with engine in one piece- I think HFF2000 have used it. (And possibly others.) Just needs a plug removed. Will have to enquire from MRL how they expect to carry out the checks.
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Old 23 Jan 2017, 21:46 (Ref:3704590)   #4
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How do you measure it without taking the head off? Is it a reliable measurement?
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 01:55 (Ref:3704623)   #5
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How do you measure it without taking the head off? Is it a reliable measurement?
It is possible to check the cc of a cylinder by putting a spring loaded device down the plug hole to measure the bore and then measuring the stroke with a rod at TDC and BDC, However although the bore can be measured accurately unless the head has central plugs then it can't be done to be absolutely sure.
In older pushrod engines it can be done by filling the cylinder to the top of the plug hole with a liquid on TDC and measuring how much more is needed at BDC to the same level, this can be very accurate if it's carried out properly, however it needs the rocker shaft removing or the valve adjustment on that cylinder to be slackened off so that the valves don't open.
As it would take a fair bit of work on an OHC engine that would mean removing the camshaft/s then there isn't any quick way for all engines unfortunately.
I have yet to see a laser testing device that could do this job ?
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 04:05 (Ref:3704646)   #6
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bludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
When NASCAR were running in Australia in the early 90's, I heard of a device that screwed into the spark plug hole and measured the volume of air passed through a gauge while the motor was turned over by hand. Surely something like that still exists?
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 05:17 (Ref:3704655)   #7
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
How did the Porsche club manage with the 924 cup?
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 06:33 (Ref:3704663)   #8
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When NASCAR were running in Australia in the early 90's, I heard of a device that screwed into the spark plug hole and measured the volume of air passed through a gauge while the motor was turned over by hand. Surely something like that still exists?
I think that may be the method I've heard about. Will make enquiries!


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How did the Porsche club manage with the 924 cup?
Dunno, Terence- How? I think some championships have required engines to be inspected / measured / sealed before the season start. Certainly the Porsches all had to be checked on a particular rolling road for BHP before the season. Even then, clever peeps found away of cheating the system....
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 07:11 (Ref:3704669)   #9
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In older pushrod engines it can be done by filling the cylinder to the top of the plug hole with a liquid on TDC and measuring how much more is needed at BDC to the same level, this can be very accurate if it's carried out properly, however it needs the rocker shaft removing or the valve adjustment on that cylinder to be slackened off so that the valves don't open.
Right Gordon, it has been used par an organiser in 2016 down here, the device is supposed to be the same as used in the US pumping oil (not air). Its the most accurate way to check the capacity when the plugs are not located on the top and center of the heads I guess (Does this men something or total garbage pigeon English style?). The whole PA tech team is said to be trained and received the new weapons. Mike, checking some engine will be quite easy, such like Alfa's and BD's too, dont you think so?
Anyway, its a good start.
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 07:24 (Ref:3704673)   #10
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Memory is coming back- even though OHC, with Pinto you can slacken rockers off to stop valves from opening- so that could be method used in HFF2000....

PA as well, Gerard? Good!
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 07:42 (Ref:3704679)   #11
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Pretty sure PA checked the 911s at Dijon a couple of years back....
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 07:43 (Ref:3704680)   #12
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Yup! I once suggested that we could or should have every car of our series weighted during pre race scrutineering. At least before the first race of the season. It was refused but they didn't explain why. It seems that some organiser like to play hide n' seek and end with catch you cose I want! Not really constructive in my opinion. I asked for the track and wheelbase to be checked too. Not very popular …
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 08:02 (Ref:3704687)   #13
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Pretty sure PA checked the 911s at Dijon a couple of years back....
Ah, didn't click that. Tour Auto also couple of years ago I seem to remember that any big engined 914-6s were found out?

Just googled 'engine capacity check tool' and they are available, more so in the USA. They do need valves to be inoperable though....
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 08:59 (Ref:3704694)   #14
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The main problem is repeatability and if the operator really knows their "onions"
It's not too hard to find out if the engine is massively oversize but how far do you go ? the smaller the cc of a cylinder the harder it is to accurately measure it and I could see a lot of arguments over a couple of cc's especially if the engine is built to the regs maximum. However the idea that your engine will be checked for capacity should at least deter engine builders, having my own engine checked 3 times in one season I know the frustrations that it causes !
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 09:09 (Ref:3704696)   #15
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The rules are written in a way that it is the responsibility of the Competitor to conform and abide to the rules, that is why pre-race scrutineering only checks the security mainly and also that the car conforms to its papers.

The post-race scrutineering have always been tougher than pre-race and in modern world as well and also because you then have rights to appeal, etc. under the Parc Fermé ruling and publication of results.

The device used to measure cylinder capacity at Peter Auto only works with single overhead camshaft engines and is mainly designed for V8s, never worked with anything else so interesting to hear how they are going to get BDGs, etc. in parts mid-season.

On the other hand, it will probably be useful to the sport and maybe the engine builders will start providing facts rather than "bits" about how they build engines in order to keep the customers happy.

Anyway, the problem is getting to a point where the so-called "historic sport" is every year or weekends beating the previous lap record in almost all categories and even the ones set by true legends such as Jim Clark in period by smaller cars today. If people don't start looking now in order to calm things down, in a few years we could end up with historic becoming modern and rules such as modern Appendix J being applied and that would definitely kill it.

But it takes the will of a promoter to do so as they are sovereign in their business, sad thing.
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 10:56 (Ref:3704715)   #16
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Ah, didn't click that. Tour Auto also couple of years ago I seem to remember that any big engined 914-6s were found out?
Yes that's right, there were a couple that were way over what they should have been!!

My 2ps worth.... this has got to be a step in the right direction, even the threat of having this done on a regular basis will surely make some think twice.

But as others have pointed out, this needs to be accurate and repeatable, and there have to be consequences for turning up with an over sized engine.

Organisers need entrants to fund the bills, and yet they also need to police their series, so it is going to be a bold organiser that starts turning away cars/money. Perhaps if more legit racers threatened to walk away from these unpoliced series something might get done on a more consistent basis?

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Old 24 Jan 2017, 11:08 (Ref:3704718)   #17
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Anyway, the problem is getting to a point where the so-called "historic sport" is every year or weekends beating the previous lap record in almost all categories and even the ones set by true legends such as Jim Clark in period by smaller cars today. If people don't start looking now in order to calm things down, in a few years we could end up with historic becoming modern and rules such as modern Appendix J being applied and that would definitely kill it.
To a certain extent, haven't we got this already....in that with the emergence of these continuation cars, historic racing is becoming historic "look a like" car racing?

If someone was daft enough to build a new Porsche 356 from the ground up using modern materials, modern welding, modern parts, albeit to apps k spec, I would still expect that car to be quicker than an "original" car (and yes I recognise that most race cars are janitor's brooms now!)

....pulls pin and retires a safe distance!
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 12:07 (Ref:3704739)   #18
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Pretty sure PA checked the 911s at Dijon a couple of years back....
Didnt they check several 911's for capacity and wheels size in 2016 as well? They checked some Escort's too (Jarama, Imola) and 635's (Dijon) as well for the one I know. Not forgetting the Cobra's and E Type at Imola and many ignition systems (where points/condenser are required). They've dramatically improved scrutineering.
They dont only police but sometimes are helpful giving nice advices at least safety wise.

About the lap times, some have been almost the same at least on some tracks such like Jarama, the 2' frontier seems always hard to reach or to beat for a 911 GTS 11 fitted with Dunlop's. We were fighting with that in VdeV endurance series a long while ago.
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 13:54 (Ref:3704758)   #19
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The 914 thing!
There were two that were correct and rest way over including a member of FIA Historic Commitee.

You are in a much stronger position if you are Patrick Peter where he fills grids dispite being one of the more expensive series but extremely well run.

MRL have to think about their commercial position as if they get to heavy handed they could find reduced grids
That's reality and I think what they are doing is very good but understand why they may be concerned with outcome.
Let's see what happens and can Pre Wars please be included.
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 14:27 (Ref:3704759)   #20
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The device used to measure cylinder capacity at Peter Auto only works with single overhead camshaft engines and is mainly designed for V8s.
If the cam/s can't be taken out or the valves on all cylinders stopped from opening on an OHC engine (twin or single) then I would dispute that it can be accurate, most old Yank stuff is pushrod so is no big deal. I can imagine someone trying to do it by just disconnecting the camshaft if it was easy and bending a load of valves up ! that would please the competitor !
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 16:37 (Ref:3704779)   #21
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Please excuse my ignorance but why is exactly a "single overhead camshaft engine" talking about a classic V8/ V6 design?

Again, wouldn't it be a good thing to have all the cars weighted before their first entry and the result kept for the record? Because decreasing the weight seems a good way to increase power to weight ratio, isn't it?
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 17:02 (Ref:3704784)   #22
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Thanks to one or two posters on this site, the fIA has developed the means to HTP Group 1.5 cars. I know this may grate with some, but for around four years "Group 1" was run to these regs albeit, and this is the difficulty, different "permissions" in various countries.

However, here we are now with MRL and Goodwood requiring HTPs so this engine move appears to be in sync with that.

My engine doesn't currently need a rebuild so I'll wait until later in the year.
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 17:19 (Ref:3704792)   #23
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The device used to measure cylinder capacity at Peter Auto only works with single overhead camshaft engines and is mainly designed for V8s, never worked with anything else so interesting to hear how they are going to get BDGs, etc. in parts mid-season.
Presumably a car fitted with a BDG would be automatically excluded from a Touring Car and 50s Sports Car series?
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 17:55 (Ref:3704802)   #24
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Presumably a car fitted with a BDG would be automatically excluded from a Touring Car and 50s Sports Car series?
The touring car series is not Pre 66, Peter, it's later cars and includes Gp2 and GpA up to 1990. So no- BDG is what Gp2 Escorts use.....

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Old 25 Jan 2017, 08:24 (Ref:3704926)   #25
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This is a step in the right direction but in reality, when many cars would fail "ten foot" scrutineering, this is not a substantial issue in my opinion. What is inside and bolted to the engine is much larger issue, modern small clutches and super lightweight paper doilies (sorry, flywheels) for example and these can be found simply by getting under a car and looking.
I have no problem with any scrutineering but I do get very annoyed when it is very clear that there are two scrutineering streams, which clearly happens in some organisations ( please note that MRL is NOT included in this observation) - motorsport should not be a living representation of Animal Farm....
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