New Engine Regs for IndyCar

[JagtechOhio]

No way those lease numbers are possible, just because Click and Clack are throwing their pals a bone.

Have you seen those numbers anywhere else? When Lafontaine of Delta says the same engine is $150K per unit, you think he'd rather throw that figure around than mention the lease deal for 1/3 the cost?

Somebody's fudging numbers. I already know Click and Clack are not stand-up guys.

[bjohnsonsmith]

This appears to be a 'positive' step in the right direction, from the ICONIC group.

"Change is coming to Indy."

[6157]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Honda shortened the contract length, I believe it ends after the 2011 season as of now.

Here's what you didn't read in today's announcement:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...ic-proportions

Bleacher Report is just about the least credible sports blog of least credible sports blogs, and that's saying something.

I painfully read the entire article and I'm not quite sure what his point is at all. Does he expect them to run the current Dallara for 10 more years? At some point, they'll have to spend the money for a new chassis. At first, he complains about the leased Honda engines and then he rails on that other engine options are not viable except for his silly Ecotech and Duratech suggestion. So which is it: Honda good or Honda bad?

The author makes at least 5 outlandish assumptions, assumptions a logical person can't make because we don't know the full outlay of the rules, not to mention the fact a chassis or chassis (plural) haven't been chosen yet.

The only telling thing about this article is his section on his "Stay on track" articles, where it appears he's simply bitter the IRL and it's teams did not rush to him for advice and suggestions on how to go about choosing their next package. Shocking, I say, that a professional racing series isn't resorting to letting a no-name blogger make multi-million dollar decisions.

[marcostraz]

I think that interest of IndyCar is trying to open to multiple manufacturers, not only big giants manufacturers but also small suppliers, and ensure that virtually anyone can enter at low cost and with something that is not exclusively used in a single series...accepting different types of engines I think it means: "do you have an engine that has these characteristics? Ok, come to us"...about performance, I think they will stay careful to equalize the performance between different specifications, so that the choice of teams will depend from a good deal on costs (or cost/efficiency), from sponsorship, from characteristics of the engine, rather than the performance itself...essentially, a speech similar to that done at Le Mans ...

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Engines will be equalized, Ryan, don't worry about carmakers pulling because of that.

So Helio Castroneves in a Penske car goes and wins 4 races in a row, you're saying the series should equalize the cars and allow less horsepower for that engine (less boost pressure allowance probably being the easiest method) because it's winning a lot? Does anyone actually want to see that? And then that brings up an old Indycar argument that I've not had to listen to for a dozen or so years:

"Where's the DeLorean Doc Brown? We're going back to the late 1980s/early 1990s and everyone arguing over popoff valves!"

(For fans that weren't around then, those arguments were excrutiatingly horrible to listen to; and any "equalization" is probably going to turn to turbo boost and then we will have to listen to car owners and drivers whine about it every time a microphone will be put in front of their face will make me bash my head in a wall.)

If a carmaker is uncompetitive, it'll pull out. It's what Chevrolet and Toyota did after 2005, why only one engine builder is in the sport right now, and has happened time and time again over the 100+ years of this sport's existance across all its various platforms.

[bjohnsonsmith]

We're not going to get the whole picture until ICONIC release their deliberations on a new chassis.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

No way those lease numbers are possible, just because Click and Clack are throwing their pals a bone.

Have you seen those numbers anywhere else? When Lafontaine of Delta says the same engine is $150K per unit, you think he'd rather throw that figure around than mention the lease deal for 1/3 the cost?

Somebody's fudging numbers. I already know Click and Clack are not stand-up guys.

Who is Click and Clack?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Who is Click and Clack?

Ganassi and Penske?

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

So Helio Castroneves in a Penske car goes and wins 4 races in a row, you're saying the series should equalize the cars and allow less horsepower for that engine (less boost pressure allowance probably being the easiest method) because it's winning a lot? Does anyone actually want to see that?

I just said what IRL officials said: there will be equalizing. I can live with that if the equalizing is soft enough that X engine with 10hp more remains slightly more powerful than its rivals. What is your perfect situation? By what you say, you want the same open rules that led to the current Dallara Honda spec era.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Weren't the rules for CART open?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Weren't the rules for CART open?

Not really...they designated boost, etc.

Back in the very old days, guys would have lots of leeway in such matters...

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I just said what IRL officials said: there will be equalizing. I can live with that if the equalizing is soft enough that X engine with 10hp more remains slightly more powerful than its rivals.

Take this rule to heart:

THE SYSTEM WILL ALWAYS GET GAMED!

That thing I just described and what you said "you can live with" is how NASCAR always equalized performance via restrictors and spoilers so that no one carmaker got an advantage over another up until COT introduction, and Indycar fans if I recall correctly decried it because you're penalizing success (fyi: Nationwide did the same thing a year or two ago when Kyle Busch would win every race he started in a Toyota; the next race was at IRP, Busch won, and stated in his victory lane celebration, "I'd like to thank all my competitors for my new traction control"). Not to mention how are you going to equalize if you have independent engine builders? If I make an engine and it doesn't perform well, should I get a ton of performance perks to make up for me not producing a good engine? Because if you equalize engines, you should equalize all engines, not just the ones that have big money backing.

By what you say, you want the same open rules that led to the current Dallara Honda spec era.

No, I don't want to return to the early '90s. The politics were horrible, everyone knew it, the fans knew it, and was one of the reasons in my opinion why NASCAR took off, because people don't want to watch an argument, they want to watch a race.

Tim Northcutt: Not really...they designated boost, etc.

Back in the very old days, guys would have lots of leeway in such matters...

And throw in that "lots of leeway" with a series owned and ran by the car owners themselves, and certain top owners would use their influence by controlling who got what car or engine, so the lesser owners would have to look a different way if they thought the top guys were cheating because it would affect their future prospects.

Where were you Sunday by the way?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Take this rule to heart:

THE SYSTEM WILL ALWAYS GET GAMED!

That thing I just described and what you said "you can live with" is how NASCAR always equalized performance via restrictors and spoilers so that no one carmaker got an advantage over another up until COT introduction, and Indycar fans if I recall correctly decried it because you're penalizing success (fyi: Nationwide did the same thing a year or two ago when Kyle Busch would win every race he started in a Toyota; the next race was at IRP, Busch won, and stated in his victory lane celebration, "I'd like to thank all my competitors for my new traction control"). Not to mention how are you going to equalize if you have independent engine builders? If I make an engine and it doesn't perform well, should I get a ton of performance perks to make up for me not producing a good engine? Because if you equalize engines, you should equalize all engines, not just the ones that have big money backing.



No, I don't want to return to the early '90s. The politics were horrible, everyone knew it, the fans knew it, and was one of the reasons in my opinion why NASCAR took off, because people don't want to watch an argument, they want to watch a race.

I agree with you...

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I made an error...the HP range will be 550-700

do we really need any further details?

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Who is Click and Clack?

try this, for pure entertainment purposes, ONLY.

Click & Clack in the IRL world? i don't have a clue, but interested to see who is behind the "curtain".

[JagtechOhio]

Greetings and welcome to new member 6157.

It's unfortunate that you did not post your comments on my article at Bleacher Report, but I will respond to them here..where less people will see them.

Regardless of other content on Bleacher Report, my blog there gets at least some readership thanks to its inclusion in a web aggregator site. Sorry if you object to the wrapper. As for the content:

"Does he expect them to run the current Dallara for 10 more years?"

What I do not expect IndyCar to do is allow car counts to drop low enough that sponsor or promoter minimums are flirted with. Given current trends, YOU must be certain that there are enough financially viable teams to purchase 20 new chassis and 20 spares for 2012. It's reassuring to know you see that as a certainty.

In reality, it is not. Even if the Dallaras were retained as T cars, the transition costs to a full field of new equipment would be partailly deferred.

"So which is it: Honda good or Honda bad?"

As stated, Honda superb. Honda too expensive. Honda needs competition. Honda V8's need to remain as an option for continued use in 2012 and beyond, until a full field is powered by the new V6 and other engines which are, as yet, unknown. In new chassis, which are as of yet unknown. So is the projected date of their mass production.

When the Honda V8 is made obsolete by more affordable and efficient engines that all the teams own, that's when you legislate then out of competition. Not before.

"...his silly Ecotech and Duratech suggestion."

Both of those platforms have been developed, and are being raced in other catagories now. Just like the Mazda MZR-R, which is a directly comparable platform that also fits within the broad rules as announced.

So why wait until a new chassis is available to begin using the new powerplants? They could already be in use now, or before 2012 when the new equipment is mandated.

"Shocking, I say, that a professional racing series isn't resorting to letting a no-name blogger make multi-million dollar decisions."

Randy Bernard has openly solicited direct input from fans, and stated that he reads blogs and culls ideas from them. Are you comforted that he is taking advice from big-name bloggers like Robin Miller and Curt Cavin? He quotes them repeatedly in interviews.

I don't have any influence, just ideas. No need for indignation on your part, I haven't received a direct response to more than one of them.

"... it appears he's simply bitter the IRL and it's teams did not rush to him for advice and suggestions..."

What will make me bitter is watching the IRL continue to slide into obscurity, because I happen to be a racing fan. Bitter is complaining about problems without attempting to solve them. Too bad for me if my effort is ignored or rejected, I stand by it until reasonable opposition points out the faults.

"The author makes at least 5 outlandish assumptions..."

Not sure what specifically you are referring to there, but here's another assumption by the same author: you use a screen name of "Virtual Balboa" in other online venues, where your no-name status doesn't deter you from proclaiming Indycar's failure. Always anonymously, and without offering suggestions for improvement.

If you have specific information to correct my ignorance, please post it in the venue where it belongs. If you simply stopped by to flip me off, consider the job done. Have a nice day.

[JagtechOhio]

Click and Clack = Robin Miller and Marshall Pruett.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Jagtech not everyone will agree with you, don't get discouraged, but no one can deny your efforts and passion to get the series headed in a new direction are admirable. They have created healthly discussion and debate amongst the core fans, which Bernard does genuinely seem to be listening to en masse.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Greetings and welcome to new member 6157.

It's unfortunate that you did not post your comments on my article at Bleacher Report, but I will respond to them here..where less people will see them...

I rather liked your response, Jag.

Who is "Virtual Balboa"? Sounds like a lame character name from World of Warcraft.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by 6157

Bleacher Report is just about the least credible sports blog of least credible sports blogs, and that's saying something.

I painfully read the entire article and I'm not quite sure what his point is at all. Does he expect them to run the current Dallara for 10 more years? At some point, they'll have to spend the money for a new chassis. At first, he complains about the leased Honda engines and then he rails on that other engine options are not viable except for his silly Ecotech and Duratech suggestion. So which is it: Honda good or Honda bad?

The author makes at least 5 outlandish assumptions, assumptions a logical person can't make because we don't know the full outlay of the rules, not to mention the fact a chassis or chassis (plural) haven't been chosen yet.

The only telling thing about this article is his section on his "Stay on track" articles, where it appears he's simply bitter the IRL and it's teams did not rush to him for advice and suggestions on how to go about choosing their next package. Shocking, I say, that a professional racing series isn't resorting to letting a no-name blogger make multi-million dollar decisions.

And ...

[JagtechOhio]

Thanks, Canada. Much appreciated.

Cheers bjohn,

VB is a guy who has tried to stab me in the neck before, on several other sites. Maybe that's him, maybe my assumption is wrong. No matter.

If and when somebody from the inside tells me to shut up, or disputes fact or opinion I have written, then I will learn from it and move on. A few things have gotten through and been acknowledged, nothing has been criticized from the inside. Accepted, dismissed or ignored, most often there is no way to know.

Did anybody see the Nascar truck race at Texas tonight? The lack of a pre-race crowd is concerning.

[Félix]

Seriously, what are we hoping for here? Racing has always been about trying to build a better car between seasons and having to pay for these upgrades. Now because there is this trend of single make series and because the IRL has stuck with the Dallara for much too long, we should be idiotically careful when contemplating a change? It will be hard because the series has waited this long and is already struggling to survive since nobody cares anymore. Bite the bullet and do it already! People would still struggle to pay for a half-assed upgrade package worth a few 100Ks and those who know the Dallara inside and out would still keep on dominating the sport because they have spent millions in simulations and tests while the other teams don't even have the money to put a good driver in them. Oh wait, that must be why THEY are asking for status quo!

It's the same thing for the engines. The Honda is tremendously expensive and if anything else is allowed, it will be cheaper and will make more torque and power if needed. The AER-Mazda inline 4 could be fitted in an Indycar in a few months and they could be the spec engine for next year... for 1/4 of the cost! The GRE projects from VW, BMW and PSA are further along than I thought and could be at the next Indy 500; if what those in charge wanted was really something new. As for the stock block turbos from GM and Ford, I think they would be outclassed by real race engines and cost too much money and time to be made competitive; but again they could be on the grid fast if someone was willing. Instead, we have a 2.4 twin-turbo V6 (how unique and uninteresting to anyone else is that?) that's still in its primary design phase. It's gonna be impossible to compete against that for inevitably smaller operations who had in mind smaller inline fours with one turbo... unless they lobby a lot, and we have already seen where Honda's politics are leading!

[JagtechOhio]

Only answering for myself, I want every bit as much variety and innovation as a full grid of teams can afford.

If that means enabling teams to continue racing what they already own until they can afford to upgrade, so be it.

Entrants' requests to delay changes in equipment are part of the reason for the years of running the same chassis.

The new engine spec could have been adopted before, or now...no need to wait for 2012. But there is no need to mandate the V8 and Dallara out of existance. Let competition and team financial stability take care of that.

[6157]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Greetings and welcome to new member 6157.

It's unfortunate that you did not post your comments on my article at Bleacher Report, but I will respond to them here..where less people will see them.

If I had known you wrote the article, I never would have responded. I lend even less credibility to "message board posters"

To keep this on topic: The fact remains that a fan with such a disconnect from the present environment of the IndyCar Series is in no position to criticize or "offer" suggestions. The current Dallara is not suited for the current layout of the IndyCar Series (Ovals, road courses, street course), neither are the engines. They were both built, specifically, with oval racing in mind.

The new chassis are being designed with conversion and higher-quality racing in mind. It is outrageously expensive for a Dallara road course kit right now but apparently you think current and new teams can continue to afford this package, while harping against the costs of a new chassis. As I said originally, which you conveniently ignored, no one knows the complete rules package so many of your concerns are unfounded, at least for the moment.

The new engines will also be designed toward being easily converted from oval to road course configuration, with the help of the turbo. I don't expect Honda to stop providing engines through a lease agreement but hopefully other manufacturers, such as Mazda, will be willing to sell and still offer support. Another possibility is independent manufacturers coming back and partnering with a manufacturer to badge the engine, something many people have been wanting to see back at Indy for a while.

You say your concerned about the survival of the IndyCar Series with costs in the current economy, as teams damage cars, costly repairs and updates and maybe even new chassis will be needed. Myself, as many others, would rather see this in a less costly manner which the new chassis should almost certainly provide.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by 6157

If I had known you wrote the article, I never would have responded. I lend even less credibility to "message board posters"

To keep this on topic: The fact remains that a fan with such a disconnect from the present environment of the IndyCar Series is in no position to criticize or "offer" suggestions. The current Dallara is not suited for the current layout of the IndyCar Series (Ovals, road courses, street course), neither are the engines. They were both built, specifically, with oval racing in mind.

The new chassis are being designed with conversion and higher-quality racing in mind. It is outrageously expensive for a Dallara road course kit right now but apparently you think current and new teams can continue to afford this package, while harping against the costs of a new chassis. As I said originally, which you conveniently ignored, no one knows the complete rules package so many of your concerns are unfounded, at least for the moment.

The new engines will also be designed toward being easily converted from oval to road course configuration, with the help of the turbo. I don't expect Honda to stop providing engines through a lease agreement but hopefully other manufacturers, such as Mazda, will be willing to sell and still offer support. Another possibility is independent manufacturers coming back and partnering with a manufacturer to badge the engine, something many people have been wanting to see back at Indy for a while.

You say your concerned about the survival of the IndyCar Series with costs in the current economy, as teams damage cars, costly repairs and updates and maybe even new chassis will be needed. Myself, as many others, would rather see this in a less costly manner which the new chassis should almost certainly provide.

To be honest you're saying more or less the same thing as Jagtech said, about the current state of IndyCar racing as well as a lot of other people for that matter.

From my reading of it, his proposal to use an inline 4 turbo engine, with the current Dallara chassis, was in the event the Dallara chassis would continue to be used and coupling it with an inline 4 turbo engine could provide a cheaper alternative to the expensive Honda/Ilmor engine and therefore make racing more affordable to smaller teams, who have a smaller budget.

[JagtechOhio]

To 6157:

You're quite an accomplished writer. In a mere two posts you have flamed me, everyone who posts articles through the Bleacher report site, and everyone who posts here.

When you want to drop the posturing and share some facts, you can start anytime. We'll start with this:

"It is outrageously expensive for a Dallara road course kit right now but apparently you think current and new teams can continue to afford this package, while harping against the costs of a new chassis."

There are teams right now that are not racing the chassis they already own. Cut the engine lease budget in half, that won't change. Cut the spares budget in half and it still won't change.

If a new chassis is approved that reduces initial cost by $300K, and drops the annual spares package by $300K more per car, teams like AA, KVR, and D&R will benefit in the long term. Penske and Ganassi will obviously continue.

Today, all the teams own their chassis and both brake, suspension and three wing packages. The cost of spares is the only added variable. Chassis are rarely added or replaced.

IndyCar desperately needs variety, even more than they need to reduce team budgets. That is precisely why new engine platforms need to be introduced, and existing choices should be made eligible now, not two seasons from now.

New chassis designs are overdue, in part because team owners requested that current specs be retained after the 2006 season for cost containment. Now 2012 is the earliest they will reach the grid.

None of the announced plans of the Series or manufacturers points to the availability of more than one new chassis type, and one new engine type. If other players come forward, the more the merrier. The public invitation issued to engine suppliers this week has been on the table for two years.

The announced plans indicate the discontinuation of the Honda V8 after 2011. That effectively removes the option of continued competition for the current Dallara chassis, and erases the value of the investment in them.

Will Vision, Rahal/Letterman, or Beck (3G) be able to afford a pair of new chassis to replace the Dallaras they own and cannot run now? Sam Schmidt or Brian Herta one each?

Will Dale Coyne, Conquest, and Fazzt be prepared to each buy four new chassis? Two each for HVM, Haas, Foyt, Panther, SFR? And don't forget the spares package they will have to add for the new chassis.

Most of those teams are running on fumes now, some running limited schedules or none at all. It would take a one time investment to alter their Dallara chassis to accept a new powerplant, which would yield a significant cost savings when compared to the $935K annual Honda V8 lease.

Instead of allowing that now, and establishing variety in the field now, that will not happen until 2012. If the new chassis will be available as anticipated, there will be no financial sense in modifying a Dallara at that point. Buy new chassis and spares and junk the old gear, or go home.

The converse is to permit team owners some options, and defer costs by enabling a selective transition to new engines and chassis. Recoup value by selling their Dallaras to start-up teams, even if they are only to be used as T cars or Indy one-offs.

The immediate benefit of that plan keeps the doors open for some teams. It also creates variety on the grid, with at least three available configurations when the new chassis arrive.

You can insult me, or my ideas, or my right to express them all you want. What you won't read is a single word I have written in opposition to new chassis, which are needed to improve both the competitive balance and the safety of the racing. What you won't read is a single word in opposition to new engines, which I have researched and advocated for immediate use. Including the Mazda you now accept as an alternative.

If the facts change, so will my evaluation of them. You have facts? Put up or shut up.