The Porsche vs Ferrari (or Badger vs brielga) thread

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by Stranger

And here we go for race 1:

1. IMSA Performance Matmut #16 - Porsche 997 GT3 RSR
2. Autorlando Sport #3 - Porsche 997 GT3 RSR
3. Advanced Engineering #12 - Ferrari F430 GT2

And Race 2

1. Autorlando Sport #3 - Porsche 997 GT3 RSR
2. Trottet Racing #5 - Ferrari F430 GT2
3. Autorlando Sport #4 - Porsche 997 GT3 RSR

[Dario911]

Everything's back to normality, with Porsche in the first place. Congratulations to Autorlando and IMSA Racing, and to all the members of the crews!
A good day for Porsche: we are the first in this championship, too.
ALMS, FIA GT, LMS, Italian GT and GT Open... Porsche is in the first place everywhere!
Disappointed for Le Mans... but there's to much to win out of there!

[FIRE]

The Porsche vs Ferrari (or Badger vs brielga) Championship - Season 2

2009 Schedule

Round	Date	Series	Event	1st	2nd	3rd
1	21st March	ALMS	Sebring, USA	Ferrari	Ferrari	Panoz
2	4th April	ALMS	St Petersburg, USA	Porsche	BMW	Panoz
3	5th April	LMS	Catalunya, Spain	Porsche	Ferrari	Ferrari
4	18th April	ALMS	Long Beach, USA	Porsche	Ferrari	BMW
5	18th April	GT Open	Imola, Italy	Ferrari	Porsche	Porsche
6	19th April	GT Open	Imola, Italy	Ferrari	Ferrari	Porsche
7	3rd May	FIA GT	Silverstone, Great Britain	Porsche	Ferrari	Ferrari
8	10th May	LMS	Spa, Belgium	Porsche	Ferrari	Ferrari
9	16th May	FIA GT	Adria, Italy	Porsche	Ferrari	Ferrari
10	16th May	GT Open	Portimão, Portugal	Porsche	Ferrari	Ferrari
11	17th May	GT Open	Portimão, Portugal	Ferrari	Porsche	Ferrari
12	17th May	ALMS	Miller Motorsports Park, USA	Porsche	Porsche	Ferrari
13	13th/14th June	Le Mans	Le Mans, France	Ferrari	Ferrari	Ferrari
14	21st June	FIA GT	Oschersleben, Germany	Ferrari	Porsche	Aston Martin
15	27th June	GT Open	Spa, Belgium	Porsche	Porsche	Ferrari
16	28th June	GT Open	Spa, Belgium	Porsche	Ferrari	Porsche
17	4th July	GT Open	Donington, Great Britain
18	5th July	GT Open	Donington, Great Britain
19	18th July	ALMS	Lime Rock Park, USA
20	26th July	FIA GT	Spa, Belgium
21	2nd August	LMS	Portimão, Portugal
22	8th August	ALMS	Mid-Ohio, USA
23	9th August	FIA GT	Bucharest, Romania
24	16th August	ALMS	Road America, USA
25	23th August	LMS	Nürburgring, Germany
26	29th August	GT Open	Valencia, Spain
27	30th August	GT Open	Valencia, Spain
28	30th August	ALMS	Mosport, USA
29	5th September	ALMS	Detroit, USA
30	13th September	LMS	Silverstone, Great Britain
31	19th September	GT Open	Magny-cours, France
32	20th September	GT Open	Magny-cours, France
33	20th September	FIA GT	Portimão, Portugal
34	26th September	ALMS	Road Atlanta, USA
35	3rd October	GT Open	Monza, Italy
36	4th October	GT Open	Monza, Italy
37	4th October	FIA GT	Paul Ricard, France
38	10th October	ALMS	Laguna Seca, USA
39	25th October	FIA GT	Zolder, Belgium
40	24th October	GT Open	Catalunya, Spain
41	25th October	GT Open	Catalunya, Spain
42	21st November	GT Open	Losail, Qatar
43	22nd November	GT Open	Losail, Qatar

Points system
1st = 4 points
2nd = 2 points
3rd = 1 point

Sebring 12 Hours, Le Mans 24 Hours and Spa 24 Hours double points.

Standings after round 16

#	Manufacturer	Points
1	Ferrari	66
2	Porsche	53
3	Panoz	3
-	BMW	3
5	Aston Martin	1

Porsche vs Ferrari battle after round 16

Porsche	Ferrari
10	6

[dxk1]

So, there's been lots of back and forth in this thread regarding the attributes of the latest GT Porsches over the F430 Ferrari. We've heard much about how the Porsche is the King and the Ferrari just a heap. Most of the rhetoric degrading the Ferrari and praising the attributes of the Porsche has come from our friend Dario911. It is my contention that the F430 has been the better car since it was introduced, so I decided to do a quick and dirty GT2 check of the last few years (starting in 2006), when the F430 first arrived. All of us will agree that the Porsche was far superior to the old F360 Modena. However, since the F430 arrived on the scene, Ferrari has won the overwhelming majority of races, almost to the point of embarrassment. Tallying the races where GT2 cars competed, I only added races where both a Porsche and a Ferrari F430 competed in GT2. The series I looked at were LMS, ALMS, FIA-GT, 24 h of Le Mans, International GT Open, Italian GT, British GT, Spanish GT, FFSA-GT, Japanese Le Mans and Belcar. Some series has no races where a GT2 Porsche competed with a F430 Ferrari, so I didn't use those races. I only counted winners as it has been suggested it is the only legitimate stat. The final result was as follows: for 2006: Ferrari F430 31 wins, all GT2 Porsches 8 wins and other GT2s 13 wins, for 2007: Ferrari F430 52 wins, All GT2 Porsches 15 wins and other GT2s 3 wins, and for 2008: Ferrari F430 51 wins, All GT2 Porsches 18 wins and other GT2s 1 win. Adding Fire's numbers from above, since 2006 Ferrari F430 140 wins, Porsche 51 wins and other GT2s 17 wins. I rest my case. Anyone who would like to do a similar tally for GT3 is free to add that to these numbers.

DK

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by dxk1

So, there's been lots of back and forth in this thread regarding the attributes of the latest GT Porsches over the F430 Ferrari. We've heard much about how the Porsche is the King and the Ferrari just a heap. Most of the rhetoric degrading the Ferrari and praising the attributes of the Porsche has come from our friend Dario911. It is my contention that the F430 has been the better car since it was introduced, so I decided to do a quick and dirty GT2 check of the last few years (starting in 2006), when the F430 first arrived. All of us will agree that the Porsche was far superior to the old F360 Modena. However, since the F430 arrived on the scene, Ferrari has won the overwhelming majority of races, almost to the point of embarrassment. Tallying the races where GT2 cars competed, I only added races where both a Porsche and a Ferrari F430 competed in GT2. The series I looked at were LMS, ALMS, FIA-GT, 24 h of Le Mans, International GT Open, Italian GT, British GT, Spanish GT, FFSA-GT, Japanese Le Mans and Belcar. Some series has no races where a GT2 Porsche competed with a F430 Ferrari, so I didn't use those races. I only counted winners as it has been suggested it is the only legitimate stat. The final result was as follows: for 2006: Ferrari F430 31 wins, all GT2 Porsches 8 wins and other GT2s 13 wins, for 2007: Ferrari F430 52 wins, All GT2 Porsches 15 wins and other GT2s 3 wins, and for 2008: Ferrari F430 51 wins, All GT2 Porsches 18 wins and other GT2s 1 win. Adding Fire's numbers from above, since 2006 Ferrari F430 140 wins, Porsche 51 wins and other GT2s 17 wins. I rest my case. Anyone who would like to do a similar tally for GT3 is free to add that to these numbers.

DK

Any rhetoric. I agree Ferrari F430 has been the most successful car of the last years, while the Porsche 997 has had a not so successful early life. But now the things are going to change.
Ferrari has been helped by the largest number of cars in many of the major world championships, in the last years, while the Porsche has payed the wrong management of its teams.
So, this year things are a bit different. Porsche is dominating ANY GT championship all around the world (except for Le Mans 24 Hours and Sebring), while Ferrari is suffering the return of the 911.
The Porsche has finally focused its efforts in FIA GT, ALMS, LMS and GT Open, making a more intelligent politics about its team: no more top drivers and gentleman on the same car (in many series, this was the choice), but only top drivers in the main championships.
And so, Porsche is in the first place in FIA GT (with a 2008 spec car), in ALMS, LMS and GT Open.
Is this just a casuality?
I don't think so.
In the last years, when Porsche has replaced the old 996 GT3 with the 997 GT3, many of the most experienced teams have left the scene: Freisinger, Groupe M, Ebimotors (FIA GT) or Alex Job Racing (ALMS).
They were all experienced to face Ferrari's Risi, AF, Advanced Engineering teams.
In FIA GT, Porsche didn't agree with Ratel politics, and left the scene. So Ferrari has fought with a not well experienced team like the BMS, to its first appearence in the series with a Porsche (only 1 year of cooperation) and Prospeed, at its second season in the championship.
Prospeed was not supported at the same way of the AF Corse, in 2007. But this year, with an hybrid 2008/09 spec car, is in the first place...
Autorlando is dominating in GT Open, a championship they've won in 2007, when they had the only Porsche 997 in the championship, against 10 or more F430...
In LMS Ferrari has dominated in 2007/08, but now we are showing a real supremacy, thanks to the car improvements and a better crew management.
In ALMS Porsche has lost in 2007 (Ferrari dominated the series), but has won in 2008, while they are in the first place this year.
Porsche is now playng the role Ferrari has played in 2007/2008 seasons. Now is the fastest car in any series. You can read the lap times in ALMS, FIA GT, GT Open and LMS to find this.
At the Michelotto factory, boys are worried for this situation. Now they are chasing the Porsche, the game is over.
I respect Ferrari, they have clearly deserved ALL the wins in the last years. And the Porsche has deserved many of its defeats.
But, from the middle of the 2008, Porsche is coming back, winning races and races.
You forget a thing: when there were 996 and 360, Ferrari was not able to win any international championship (except for FIA GT in 2001), and Porsche was dominant.
Now, in the battle between 997 and F430, Ferrari is not as dominant as the Porsche 996 was at its times.
Porsche 997 has won in Le Mans 2007, GT Open (2007), LMS (2006), ALMS (2008), Sebring (2008), and many other races.
The same thing you could not say about F360...
Would you calculate the number of wins for Porsche and Ferrari in the last 10 years?

[AX lover]

When do you guys think Ferrari will come with the new F450 GT2?
The introduction of the roadversion was scheduled for the IAA in Frankfurt (september) but is put back untill the beginning of 2010.

So will we see the F450 GT2 on the circuits in 2010? Or do we have to wait untill 2011? How did Ferrari do this when the F430 was introduced?

[Dead-Eye]

The 430 was introduced in late 2004. The GT2 appeared in 2006.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Dario911

But now the things are going to change.

I agree, for the most part this year's 997 is faster than F430.

Originally Posted by Dario911

So, this year things are a bit different. Porsche is dominating ANY GT championship all around the world (except for Le Mans 24 Hours and Sebring), while Ferrari is suffering the return of the 911.

I believe a big part of this is that they are no longer upgrading the F430 and development has stopped. I believe they are planning a new car for next year.

Originally Posted by Dario911

And so, Porsche is in the first place in FIA GT (with a 2008 spec car), in ALMS, LMS and GT Open. Is this just a casuality? I don't think so.

See above comment.

Originally Posted by Dario911

Porsche is now playng the role Ferrari has played in 2007/2008 seasons. Now is the fastest car in any series. You can read the lap times in ALMS, FIA GT, GT Open and LMS to find this.
At the Michelotto factory, boys are worried for this situation. Now they are chasing the Porsche, the game is over.

The facts this year are obvious, Porsche is winning more races and has the faster car. However, the domination is not so complete as what Ferrari did to Porsche in 2006 to 2008. While Porsche has won more races, Ferrari is still close with a decent chance of winning in most of these series. I think ALMS is the only one where Ferrari can still win some races but the Porsche teams (Lizards and F/L) are just too good to think one car can score enough points to win the series.

Originally Posted by Dario911

You forget a thing: when there were 996 and 360, Ferrari was not able to win any international championship (except for FIA GT in 2001), and Porsche was dominant.

I didn't forget this and I acknowledged that the 996 was far better and dominant over the F360.

Originally Posted by Dario911

Would you calculate the number of wins for Porsche and Ferrari in the last 10 years?

You are certainly correct about the last 10 years and no one will argue that. My point was that the F430 was a huge improvement over the F360 and has had a three year run of complete dominance. Things have certainly swung back in favor of the 997 this year, but the F430 is still competitive and will certainly win a few more races this year. Anyway, the competition is great and everyone benefits when things are competitive.

DK

[AX lover]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

The 430 was introduced in late 2004. The GT2 appeared in 2006.

Thnx! So I guess we will see the F450 GT2 appear in 2011.

[HORNDAWG]

Giuseppe Risi stated earlier in the year, that this would probably be the last full year of the F430. So one would hope that we will see its replacement before 2011! Here at the end








L.P.

[Dead-Eye]

I guess that means they hope to have the 450 ready for the last races of 2010, but it isn't certain.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by dxk1

I believe a big part of this is that they are no longer upgrading the F430 and development has stopped. I believe they are planning a new car for next year.

DK

You're wrong. F430 has been developed in 2009 spec by Michelotto. They are developing the car, simply because they will be used F430 till 2011, at the same way of the 997.
F450 will debut in 2011, and you cannot think Ferrari and Michelotto will leave the F430 development now, 2 years before the debut of the new car.
The same situation's for the Porsche: the new 911 RSR will appear in 2011.
And so, they will develope both the cars till the middle of the 2010.
I've read on Autosprint, Porsche and Ferrari are thinking to build a GT1 version of their 911 and F430, according to the new rules for the GT1 class.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Dario911

F450 will debut in 2011, and you cannot think Ferrari and Michelotto will leave the F430 development now, 2 years before the debut of the new car.

The last I read was that the Ferrari F450 (project name F142) road car will be presented in September during the Frankfurt Motor Show and will go on sale in 2010.

So I guess they will start 2010 with the old F430 (with minor development or none at all) and debut the F450 race car during the year. Hence Risi's statement that 2009 is the last full year with the F430.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Dario911

You're wrong. F430 has been developed in 2009 spec by Michelotto. They are developing the car, simply because they will be used F430 till 2011, at the same way of the 997.
F450 will debut in 2011, and you cannot think Ferrari and Michelotto will leave the F430 development now, 2 years before the debut of the new car.

Dario, you could be right, but I know Risi used the same car at Le Mans this year as won last year with very little development and Mr. Risi himself said this was the last year for F430. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next round of the rivalry at Spa 24 hours.

DK

[AX lover]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The last I read was that the Ferrari F450 (project name F142) road car will be presented in September during the Frankfurt Motor Show and will go on sale in 2010.

So I guess they will start 2010 with the old F430 (with minor development or none at all) and debut the F450 race car during the year. Hence Risi's statement that 2009 is the last full year with the F430.

As I said before, the introduction is delayed!

The F450 may be revealed at December’s LA motor show as a concept featuring a future hybrid powertrain.

But the launch decision is pending while Ferrari fine-tunes the styling of it best-selling model ahead of the sales launch early in 2010.

The supercar was scheduled for an unveiling on 9 September, and its engineering was finished some time ago. But sources say the Pininfarina styling had to be adjusted for aerodynamic reasons and that Ferrari boss Luca di Montezemolo ordered tweaks as late as last month.

Source: http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/240841/

[rich07]

So with the road car being delayed then the GT2 car will be possibly delayed as well. And added to this confusion are the reports of an upgraded 430 GT2 into the new GT1 class for next year.

If Ferrari and Porsche do indeed build GT1 430s and 911s who would step up out of GT2 to compete?

I hope JMB build the 599 GT1 they talked about a while back, that would be better suited to GT1 IMHO.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by AX lover

As I said before, the introduction is delayed!
Source: http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/240841/

That there is a slight delay in the debut of the road car is/could be nothing, it also states that it could be launched in Dec. (rather than Sept.) as a hybrid model. The standard petrol units engineering is complete with only some aero/body adjustments to be made. This could actually have zero effect on the release of the GT-2 version of the car!

Originally Posted by rich07

So with the road car being delayed then the GT2 car will be possibly delayed as well. And added to this confusion are the reports of an upgraded 430 GT2 into the new GT1 class for next year.

If Ferrari and Porsche do indeed build GT1 430s and 911s who would step up out of GT2 to compete?

I hope JMB build the 599 GT1 they talked about a while back, that would be better suited to GT1 IMHO.

I doubt that there is a 430 being updated for GT-1 (2010) with the new 450 just around the corner. As for the 911, it will probably be the same body shell when they make the next upgrade so?? I still do not get the impression that Ferrari want a 599 built as a GT-anything.




L.P.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Dario, you could be right, but I know Risi used the same car at Le Mans this year as won last year with very little development and Mr. Risi himself said this was the last year for F430. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next round of the rivalry at Spa 24 hours.

DK

That's right. The Risi car was a 2008 spec. But in the various championships, the cars are for the most in 2009 spec. AF Corse in FIA GT, Advanced Engineering in GT Open, and all the other main teams have all upgraded the car. Michelotto has improved aerodynamic, engine electronic management and setup.
I don't know why Risi has used a 2008 (a car collector is its owner...). I suppose for reliability...?
Anyway, I've read on Autosprint Michelotto and Ferrari are perplexed and worried for the great superiority the Porsche has shown in Spa, in the last race of the GT Open.
In the same article, there were the news about a project for the new F430 GT1, and that we'll never see the new F450 GT2 before 2011.
Remember the 911 GT3 RSR is in the middle between a GT2 and a GT1 car, so it would be easily upgraded to a GT1.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Dario911

...in the various championships, the cars are for the most in 2009 spec. AF Corse in FIA GT, Advanced Engineering in GT Open, and all the other main teams have all upgraded the car. Michelotto has improved aerodynamic, engine electronic management and setup.

Dario, thank you for the information. Here is something you should enjoy...some nice photos of Porsche museum in Zuffenhausen:

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/sel...e/Visit&Y=2009

DK

[AX lover]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

That there is a slight delay in the debut of the road car is/could be nothing, it also states that it could be launched in Dec. (rather than Sept.) as a hybrid model.

There will be no car launched in december. If you read it again you will see that they MIGHT present a hybrid CONCEPT CAR. The F450 will not be launched untill 2010.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Dario, thank you for the information. Here is something you should enjoy...some nice photos of Porsche museum in Zuffenhausen:

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/sel...e/Visit&Y=2009

DK

Thank you for the shots, my friend!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by AX lover

There will be no car launched in december. If you read it again you will see that they MIGHT present a hybrid CONCEPT CAR. The F450 will not be launched untill 2010.

It says NOWHERE , how long the car will be delayed from its original Sept. launch date! The car is already engineered with some body/aero adjustments being made. Now if they are optomistic of launching a hybrid concept of the car in Dec. what gives you the idea that there will be a major delay in the launch of the car that is all but ready? Per se. Also there are other articles out there that state it a little different than the AUTOCAR piece. Such as: this. Also I will reiterate, this could actually have zero effect on the release of the GT-2 version of the car, even if the road car is not released until early 2010. First race of the year is not until March.




L.P.

[arakis]

Porsche is in crisis, they owe 12 bilion dolars, VW is thretening to takeoverer the new joint company, Weideking said that porsche is now gonna be put into totla savings mode, and all projects, will be ether delayed or cut until the crisis is over, the only projects not hit by this are Panamera sales markenting, and expantion of the sales network, So I guess no lmp1 next year

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by arakis

Porsche is in crisis, they owe 12 bilion dolars, VW is thretening to takeoverer the new joint company, Weideking said that porsche is now gonna be put into totla savings mode, and all projects, will be ether delayed or cut until the crisis is over, the only projects not hit by this are Panamera sales markenting, and expantion of the sales network, So I guess no lmp1 next year

Why not? Porsche Motorsport sustains its own Budget separately from the Porsche road car division.

[Dario911]

Wiedeking's been a real stupid trying to buy VW!
He has wasted all the billion Porsche had accumulated in the last years! But now we are the spectator of a war to obtain the control over the Porsche.
In a corner we find mr. Piech, from VW, in the opposite corner we find the Porsche family...
It's an inner war, I'm sure Porsche will be joined with VW, but they've only to find how to divide the power...
Anyway, 9 billion of debit is not a joke... but I think Porsche has got the capabilities to win this challenge.

A positive thing: we have won in Donington GT Open race: 1st and 2nd place! Greatful!