FIA F2 2010 season discussion

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by META4

I am sorry but peoples who pretend that F2 was 1 or 2 seconds faster than F Masterare not quite right ...

Valencia Qualifying
F2: 1.27.775 (Q1) 1.27.488(Q2)
F Master: 1.27.455

Brno Qualifying
F2: 2.03.484
F Master: 2.01.124

Oschersleben
F2: 1.20.402(Q1) 1.22.131(Q2)
F Master: 1.21.724

You've been a bit picky there, these lap times are due to conditions at the circuit. You could have also included a longer track like Spa...F2 is quicker than FMaster if conditions are exactly the same.

Spa Qualifying
F2: 2.08.233
FMaster: 2:12.885
British F3 2007 pole: 2.13.896
British F3 2009 fastest lap of weekend: 2m 14.254s

The performance is bound to improve next year anyway. It isn't the feeder series to F1, that belongs to GP2. But it is sitting well with F3, FMaster etc. I don't really understand why people are still knocking it. At least it has paddle-shifts which are comparable to F1 and adjustable wing settings on the steering wheel, rather than F3's sequential box and gear cut lever which is nothing like F1. That is certainly an advantage to F2.

[jondownunder]

As far as driver news goes, Mirko Bortolotti could return after being curiously dumped by Red Bull, while this week's Autosport reports that Nick Tandy will be testing the car - good to see he hasn't abandoned single seaters yet.

[GroupOfOne]

Originally Posted by jondownunder

As far as driver news goes, Mirko Bortolotti could return after being curiously dumped by Red Bull, while this week's Autosport reports that Nick Tandy will be testing the car - good to see he hasn't abandoned single seaters yet.

Apparently the reason for him being dumped is that Red Bull asked him to move to the UK (Milton Keynes area) like many of their other drivers (Ricciardo, Hartley) to be closer to the race team for simulater sessions etc. He refused so Red Bull said 'Cheerio'.

[META4]

Originally Posted by runshaw

You've been a bit picky there, these lap times are due to conditions at the circuit. You could have also included a longer track like Spa...F2 is quicker than FMaster if conditions are exactly the same.

Spa Qualifying
F2: 2.08.233
FMaster: 2:12.885
British F3 2007 pole: 2.13.896
British F3 2009 fastest lap of weekend: 2m 14.254s

thanks for the comparison but as you said you have to compare what you can compare..... Formula Master was on the F1 bill at Spa which means they raced on 29-30 August when formula 2 was racing at Spa one month earlier 26-29th of JUNE

In my previous comparison i did it when Formula 2 and Formula Master were racing on the same WTCC events

[runshaw]

Ok it isn't exactly the same conditions, but both were certainly dry sessions at Spa . Even on the same WTCC events, track conditions change so much even if it is after half an hour, like at Brno it was wet/damp etc, constantly changing. So a direct comparison is not possible.

And at Spa it isn't a small difference which is the point i'm making, F2 is over 4 seconds quicker (as above). Even on race pace which is obviously slower, they were still lapping 2-3 seconds than FMaster qualifying pace at Spa.

Both championships were qualifying on the same day in September at Imola in similar conditions, another example.
F2 pole: 1.37.401
FMaster: 1.38.703

[META4]

Originally Posted by runshaw

Ok it isn't exactly the same conditions, but both were certainly dry sessions at Spa . Even on the same WTCC events, track conditions change so much even if it is after half an hour, like at Brno it was wet/damp etc, constantly changing. So a direct comparison is not possible.

And at Spa it isn't a small difference which is the point i'm making, F2 is over 4 seconds quicker (as above). Even on race pace which is obviously slower, they were still lapping 2-3 seconds than FMaster qualifying pace at Spa.

Both championships were qualifying on the same day in September at Imola in similar conditions, another example.
F2 pole: 1.37.401
FMaster: 1.38.703

F Master qualifying was at 9.30 and F2 was at 16.30 comparison is again very difficult...

[runshaw]

Ok so how do you account for the 4.652 seconds difference at Spa in dry conditions? 21 F2 cars lapped faster than Fabio Leimer's FMaster pole time. And the race pace, (fastest F2 race lap 2:09.812)? Do you believe that if Formula Master's were out on track at the same time as F2 that they would be lapping in 2.07's or 2.08's?

[Francis Albert]

I think it might have to to with the F2 having something like 200hp more than the F Master

[alias99]

I was going to make the same point Francis. I don't really think Spa is the best example due to its long straights where extra power + power boost is going to be very handy.

Mark Webber even said himself that a F3 car is the closest to F1 due to its power to grip ratio and a FMaster has around the same power and laps a bit quicker with paddle shift compared to F3 stick shift.

I have nothing against F2 but its hardly a fair comparison.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by alias99

I was going to make the same point Francis. I don't really think Spa is the best example due to its long straights where extra power + power boost is going to be very handy.

Spa isn't the best example because it has 'long straights'? Oh right. Sorry for using Spa as an example. So the 4.652 seconds doesn't mean anything. How can you talk about fair comparisons when you say yourself 'its hardly a fair comparison'?!

Of course the extra power and boost is going to be 'handy', hence why its quicker!! This thread has gone off course because of the numerous F2 cynics again, and I don't get it.

Mark Webber believes F3 is closest to F1 due to power and weight ratio, fair enough. Although you could list a lot of other people who regard GP2 as the closest, including someone called Michael Schumacher who openly stated this last week. And i've already talked about paddle shifts 'vs' F3 sequential boxes with gear cut levers.

[alias99]

I was trying to say that maybe on a track where power isn't the most important part and grip / downforce is more valuable the difference might not be so large.

I am not an F2 cynic (I actually believe its a good series especially at this point in time) and was simply trying to say that a car with more downforce as opposed to power, is what would be closer to F1. The fact that FMaster and F2 times at other tracks are closer with the clear power disadvantage shows that its extra downforce closes the gap and makes it more like an F1 car! And that if F3 is seen as being close to F1, Fmaster should be seen as being closer with the same amount of power and the fact it has paddle shift.

Superkarts are predicted to be quicker around Monaco than F1 does that make them better? That again isn't a fair comparison as all the other tracks are not taken into account!!

[Mak]

All a bit OTT. All formulaes have there relavents, and good and bad points. The big problem is that there are too many formula. F2 had a right to come into existance due to the fact that so many drivers were being lost to single seaters because of the outragous budgets required and this is proven by full grids. I would like to see it full of more experienced drivers, however all formulaes get watered down by so many championships. Maybe championships should have to Guarantee a minimun no. at all rounds (say 18) to be allowed to continue in future seasons. If the no.s are not there it normally means there are not enough drivers who can afford it.

[sauber11]

http://www.formulatwo.com/gallery/20...ams-jph1b.aspx

New formula2 car pics.

[runshaw]

Andy Soucek has been testing at Barcelona and Portimao and there is much improved performance. He went 0.3 seconds quicker than the WSR pole time at Portimao last year. And has gone 2.3 seconds faster than last year's F2 pole at Barcelona. Aero efficieny up by 24% and increased max downforce by 30%!

Jonathan Palmer also offers an explanation as to why the performance wasn't perhaps as quick as people expected last year. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81280

[strider]

In essence, this year's F2 car is what should have been available last year, in which case I would have been far less vocal in my criticism. I don't really accept JP's rather glib explanation for the discrepancy.

Now I wait to discover what the true cost of competing in F2 this season will be.

[runshaw]

No matter what the performance of the car was in the first year, it was a successful championship with much lower budgets than F3/WSR (a major plus IMO), produced some great racing and the only problem with it for many people was that it was called 'Formula Two'.

Budgets have gone up, it has an extra round. The basic cost of the series is now £275k. So with the numerous add-ons like travel etc, i'd imagine between £300-400k? With a decent quick car now that makes it more reasonable than the F3 Euroseries at least in terms of cost. Which if you wanted to compete in that, you'd have to dish out £700k for a drive with Mucke Motorsport, for example!

And you get the advantages of using F1-like semi-automatic paddle shifts, unlike F3's 6-speed sequential box and gear cut lever. F3 is a bit old fashioned in the gearbox department, Formula Renault's now have 7-speed paddle shifts! And the driver can change front and rear wing flap settings from the steering wheel. Its likely to be a much more successful year for F2 I think. Its a bit more 'Formula Two' now IMO, without multiple chassis' though, which is a shame!

[dampsquid]

Autosport have announced that Alex Brundle is off to British F3 for 2010.

He would rather be in a proper team environment and have more track time than race in F2 which is supposed to be the superior series.

Bit of a kick in the teeth for JP that a driver would choose to leave F2 to go to F3 and the fact that its his mates kid!

[jondownunder]

Yes, clearly a vote of no confidence in the FIA and JP's concept from Martin Brundle. All the guys from FPA seemed lost in F2 when up against drivers who had worked with dedicated teams.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by dampsquid

Autosport have announced that Alex Brundle is off to British F3 for 2010.

He would rather be in a proper team environment and have more track time than race in F2 which is supposed to be the superior series.

In general I think Alex was a little caught out by just how competitive F2 was - I was certainly hoping to see him finish higher than 19th at the start of the season!

Can't help thinking it's another case of money over talent, at least to an extent - Brundle's not slow, and I think he could do well, but if he does how much will be down to him and how much will be down to T Sport? (bearing in mind his results in equal machines in F2)

[Mak]

I don't really think that its a negative for F2. It more says that drivers should be at a higher experience level before entering F2. In F2 drivers have to be more self suffficient and able to take more control of their development. They are also limited by seat time. I think this is particularly evident with drivers from FPA series compared to those coming from team enviroment series such as Formula 3/ WSR / GP2 or even Formula Renault. Maybe F2 should be more selective, but I doubt they would as its all about econmics.

[Robbe]

sportmotores.com reports that Ricardo Teixeira has signed to drive in F2.

[jondownunder]

One fewer rival for the frontrunners to worry about then (unless they're lapping him).

[Go_For_Pole]

I see epic battles with Gandolfi

[Robbe]

I think Teixeira's performances will say a lot about the strength of the field. The organizers must be hoping that Teixeira will fight with Gandolfi

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Mak

I don't really think that its a negative for F2. It more says that drivers should be at a higher experience level before entering F2.

I agree that Alex Brundle's move to F3 is not a significant negative for F2. Ultimately, the gap between Formula Palmer Audi is a relatively large - probably akin to the gap between Formula Renault and GP2 and drivers making that switch have tended to struggle a litte. Furthermore, a number of drivers have taken backwards steps in their careers from GP2/F3000 level, such as Oliver Gavin in '95 and Mortara this year.