Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[awrb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

They don't even know if it is going to work or is drivable. CFD's and wind tunnels in old turnpike tunnels in PA is all well and good, but engineers don't drive race cars. I suspect there are a number of practical issues with the car.

Engineers may not drive race cars, but they do design them, and I think it's ridiculous you're suggesting they haven't thought about it turning. These are engineers who know racing cars, and they know this car is very important, so they wouldn't risk proposing a car that doesn't work. Do you think you know more about this design after looking at some pictures of it than the engineers who designed and tested it over the last few months?

[JagtechOhio]

I don't think a suspicion about "practical issues" labels an engineer as a fool. Ben Bowlby is a genius.

If you want to discuss practical issues, I believe there is a significant list of design concepts to examine. I imagine that is what the designers are doing today as well.

The concept vehicle was a mock-up. The proof exists only on Bowlby's computer screen at the moment. Of course he can succeed, but the parameters of cost, complexity and time have significant positions on his checklist.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Purist

Then who the hell does have credibility with you?! Nobody by the sound of it! It doesn't sound like you'll ever even be satisfied with anyone who's running the operation!

I have FAR more faith in the team owners running the show, since it is their buck, their teams, their cars, their drivers on the line, than some corporate scheme.

Besides, you've already voiced plenty of times that you don't trust, care for, or put any credibility in the Speedway management, so there's NOBODY else left on the face of this Earth, if you won't put it in the hands of guys with gasoline in their veins!

It raises the question, what in God's name do you want, MS?!

Calm down there sparky.

Why would you want the people that have failed spectacularly in the 15 years running the show?

What do I want? Too long to list right now, I'm busy watching the olympics.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by awrb

Engineers may not drive race cars, but they do design them, and I think it's ridiculous you're suggesting they haven't thought about it turning. These are engineers who know racing cars, and they know this car is very important, so they wouldn't risk proposing a car that doesn't work. Do you think you know more about this design after looking at some pictures of it than the engineers who designed and tested it over the last few months?

Every long time race car designer has produced some crap unworkable cars in their time including mr. bowlby(1997 lola champcar).

No I don't think I know more than the engineers which I why rather than being a know it all I have always left the engineering and wrenching to the engineers and mechanics.

But I do understand vehicle dynamics from a driving perspective. And yes I have plenty of questions as to how workable this design this going to be at speed.

And also all you have seen so far is a mock up. They have a ways to go to production and testing.

Again I think that is all missing the point. I think it isn't about the car, but money/revenue and power+control. Nothing more. It's a trojan horse I think. That's why it's so outrageous of a design.

[JagtechOhio]

The concept vehicle is a secondary objective, I'll agree with that for sure.

I thought I had a handle on the principle behind the Delta steering, then I read this tonight from Ben Bowlby, courtesy of Robin Miller's mailbag:

This is from Ben Bowlby: “The front wheels steer the car; they have up to 23 degrees of steering angle each way – slightly more than the current IndyCar has at present. The differential, located in the gearbox, has the capability to actively control relative rear wheel speed (but not the average speed, which would be traction control and this is not part of the differential’s functionality). This effect can be described as torque vectoring or torque steer. This is not essential for achieving steering of the car or cornering but it is probably the most consistent way of altering the balance of the car and can be driver controlled with a position switch in the cockpit that alters the sensitivity of the torque vectoring. To be clear – the rear wheels do NOT steer and do not create the force required to steer the car.”

That makes me quite happy to say that my presumptions about the torque vectoring were inaccurate, and even more puzzled as to how this concept vehicle will actually change its vector.

[bjohnsonsmith]

The rear wheels can assist with steering, using torque vectoring or torque steer. They don't actually create the force to steer as Bowlby says.

[JagtechOhio]

Can I buy a vowel, Pat?

[bjohnsonsmith]

A friend of mine had a pet vole.

[JagtechOhio]

Did you show it your Johnson?

[bjohnsonsmith]

No. However, it escaped from its cage and was found dead in the swimming pool. He also had a pet Gerbil called Goebbels but that died of old age.

[JagtechOhio]

I see, that would make him the torque of the town. Thanks for your clarification on vehicle dynamics and pet droppings.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Goebbels the Gerbil could certainly get that wheel in his cage going, so yes I suppose he was the Torque of The Town.

[djb]

now that was an interesting turn of topic, sorta refreshing oddly enough

when I was a kid, we had a gerbil that escaped in late fall into the houses heating ducts. He (or she) of course met his demise in there, and shortly after when the heating kicked in, the god awful dead thing smell got forced out with the forced air into the whole house....lordy lord it was awful

had to take apart all the ducts in the basement and go by smell to find the poor stupid feller.

geez, hope all this delta this and delta sort of exercise doesnt end up dead in the ducts leaving a bad taste in everyones mouth.....

[johntt]

http://www.popoffvalve.com/2010/2/18...signs-changing

This is the sort of variation we can look forward to with the Delta Wing open source concept

[miatanut]

Much better!

[rustyfan]

stpwildcat's take on the DeltaWing looks pretty good.

[djb]

you must mean "looks good for doing a gattling gun number of barrel rolls after turning sideways at 240mph"

thats what I see

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by djb

you must mean "looks good for doing a gattling gun number of barrel rolls after turning sideways at 240mph"

thats what I see

With such a narrow track, tricycle wheels and out of whack weight distribution I don't get how this thing is going to handle at 220 mph plus.

[Purist]

Guys, this thing doesn't have nearly the wheelbase of a Top Fuel, and the front wheels are much larger by comparison when looking at the rear meats, so turning shouldn't be nearly as much of an issue as you're thinking. Also, with low front downforce, the front wheels can actually do their thing on their own mechanical grip, rather than being overwhelmed by aero grip.

The rear bias should keep the car quite stable under braking. After all, which is a more reasonable proposition? Reining something in by pulling back on a strong rope? Or standing in front and trying to stop it when it gets to you?

Djb, with a VERY low c.g., MUCH less undertray area (flat surface to catch air), and protected wheels, there is nil chance of one of these things getting airborne or rolling. The only way for the front end to roll is if it was separated from the back, an occurrence which I think the designers will make very difficult. Although, having the bulk of the mass break away from the driver, as long as he's well protected, wouldn't be a bad thing. I have faith the designers will do a good job; we've already seen what can happen, and nobody wants another crash like we saw with Fabrizio Barbazza at Road Atlanta.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by djb

you must mean "looks good for doing a gattling gun number of barrel rolls after turning sideways at 240mph"

thats what I see

Well given the lack of side impact protection I still think the DeltaWing is a death trap, but at least stpwildcat's version is a good looking death trap

I'll keep my fingers crossed Lola gets the job.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by djb

you must mean "looks good for doing a gattling gun number of barrel rolls after turning sideways at 240mph"

thats what I see

The Cooper came to Indy the year before I was born, but the Delta Wing is giving me a little peek into what it was like as far as the reception from the fanbase.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Purist

, there is nil chance of one of these things getting airborne or rolling.

Absolute malarkey. I have enough seat time to know you can roll or flip anything.

[Purist]

It didn't say it was impossible, I just said the chances were nil (VERY low). Anyway, it would be hard for anything to have a worse airborne record than the Indy Cars of the past 10 years have had; of course, Mercedes knows what that's like.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

With such a narrow track, tricycle wheels and out of whack weight distribution I don't get how this thing is going to handle at 220 mph plus.

I don't, either.

[Purist]

Talking to a long-time aerospace engineer over lunch, he said that the layout and design made sense when I told him what the weight distribution was (specifically that it's 72.5% over the rear wheels). I didn't get a chance to have him elaborate very much, but this is somebody I definitely trust and know to be quite competent in the field.