Why does Grand-Am bother?

[aeroehl]

Why does Grand-Am bother with GT's? They really make the race feel like two races without any connection during the race. In ALMS/LMES P1 and P2 are becoming similar and GT1's usually finish in the top 5. The GT's are just so much slower. Grand-Am didn't even race GT's in the same race several times. Grand-Am would be much better if it dropped the GT's, causing several of those teams to jump up to DP's.

[dj4monie]

I always ask why do they even bother....

All they use up is ad money, crew members and drivers in other series who's talents could be put to better use overall.

Grand Am has peaked and you will NOT see any addtional growth in the series worth mentioning. All the spoil-sports and sore loosers will continue to fund the teams and put the races on, until the dollars stop coming in.

That might not be awhile though...

You have seen a sort of a power shift with Acura coming on board. We see a further shift of talent if BMW makes a long term commitment to the series as well. Lexus already has and we'll see if Toyota wants to take on Honda through their luxury brands. I think its also time for Atherton to be tough with these OEM's so they don't repeat what has been sportscar's problem in years pass.

I'm just exited that ALMS is back on track, with a race next week and I'm glad timing and scoring of the FIA GT and LMES make it possible to enjoy proper racing elsewhere.

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I always ask why do they even bother....

All they use up is ad money, crew members and drivers in other series who's talents could be put to better use overall.

Grand Am has peaked and you will NOT see any addtional growth in the series worth mentioning. All the spoil-sports and sore loosers will continue to fund the teams and put the races on, until the dollars stop coming in.

That might not be awhile though...

You have seen a sort of a power shift with Acura coming on board. We see a further shift of talent if BMW makes a long term commitment to the series as well. Lexus already has and we'll see if Toyota wants to take on Honda through their luxury brands. I think its also time for Atherton to be tough with these OEM's so they don't repeat what has been sportscar's problem in years pass.

I'm just exited that ALMS is back on track, with a race next week and I'm glad timing and scoring of the FIA GT and LMES make it possible to enjoy proper racing elsewhere.

Let's see...you implore Grand Am management to 'be tough with these OEM's'...and in the next sentence laud ALMS for being 'on track' though it is completely dominated by OEM's who run away with class championships year anfter year, and grant no quarter to newcomers.

...which is it?

[Aysedasi]

Here we go again..........

[courageous]

Let's try and steer this away from the usual path shall we?

One of the main attractions with having different classes is seeing how high the 2nd class teams can get - everyone likes watching underdogs do well.

Grand-Am does seem to be determained to keep the GT cars behind even the slower DPs - nothing wrong in wanting a one class race, but as Aeroehl says, why run them on the same track if you don't want them to do well?

[aeroehl]

Another thing that bothers me about the Grand Am GT's are they are all practically NASCARS. They are all tube frame chasis with similar motors. They are not unique. As an ALMS fan, I believe that Grand Am has a solid product in their DP's and should focus just on the DP class. That seems to be the only class SPEED covers.

[Danske]

Err, looking at the lap times it doesn't seem that the "problem" is so much the speed of Rolex GT but the number of the DPs. At Sebring the Aston qualified first in GT1 at 109% of the pole time and eleventh overall ahead of only the Mazda LMP and two LMP2s which did not turn times. At Daytona this year a time of 109% of pole would have been 30th overall and behind all the DPs that set times (in first round qualifying).


I see in Spa the top qualifying GT1 car was in 11th at 105% of pole and the top GT1 finisher was 7th overall after starting in 12th. At Daytona this year 105% of pole would only have outqualified one DP and been good enough for 29th in first round qualifying. At Phoenix this past weekend 105% of fastest in the qualifying for the qualifying race would have been behind all the DPs in 25th.

That all may not be representative samples but it doesn't seem as likely that the GT1s could still move up to the top five in the ALMS or LMS if they were qualifying with the same time they are now but behind twenty LMPs instead of ten.

Of course now someone is probably going to dig up an LMS result where a GT qualifying behind 20 LMPs still made the overall podium. :P

Originally Posted by aeroehl

Another thing that bothers me about the Grand Am GT's are they are all practically NASCARS. They are all tube frame chasis with similar motors. They are not unique.

The flat six in the Porsche, the three-rotor rotary in the Mazda, the pushrod V8 in the GTO/Vettes, and whatever they've stuck in the BMW all similar? Yes, the GTOs, the Mazdas, and some of the Vettes are tube-framed, but the Porsches, BMWs, and one of the Vettes (the Banner Corvette which was doing so well at Phoenix) are not.

[aeroehl]

LS Best Lap Times (during the race)
GA DP: 1:25.203
GA GT: 1:34.019 (110.3% of DP time)

Just for kicks (2005 ALMS LS race)
ALMS P1: 1:16:480 (89.8% of DP time)
ALMS P2: 1:17:136 (100.9% of P1 time)(90.5% of DP time)
ALMS GT1: 1:21:108 (107% of P1 time)(95% of DP time)
ALMS GT2: 1:26:042 (112.5% of P1 time)(101% of DP time)

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by courageous

Let's try and steer this away from the usual path shall we?

Thank you!

I'm pleased to see we're doing OK so far - good intelligent debate!

[the.cosmic.pope]

Originally Posted by aeroehl

Why does Grand-Am bother with GT's? They really make the race feel like two races without any connection during the race. In ALMS/LMES P1 and P2 are becoming similar and GT1's usually finish in the top 5. The GT's are just so much slower. Grand-Am didn't even race GT's in the same race several times. Grand-Am would be much better if it dropped the GT's, causing several of those teams to jump up to DP's.

Isnt the simple answer to this - why shouldnt they bother? They have offered a GT series, and a bunch of teams have decided to run in it. Alot of teams actually. So if the demand is there, and they can run the cars, why shouldnt they give them the oppertunity to run? Teams are clearly interested.

The only race this year where the GTs dont run is Long Beach. And tbh, having been to that event, and seen how tight it is, i fully understand why. The track isnt exactly long, it isnt exactly wide, and the paddock area for Grand Am was stupidly tight just for the DPs. With the drifters, Atlantics, SpeedGT and Pro Celeb taking up everywhere that Champ Car and Grand Am wasnt, i dont see where they could have put the GTs! There is 1 race where DPs dont run, which is Lime Rock.

But i dont see what not running the GTs in 1 race has to do with them dropping the GT class? I dont see why they should drop the GT class either, especailly if its so healthy.

On the comparisson between ALMS and Grand Am, its like chalk and cheese IMO. The only thing they have in common is the sportscar tag to me. I enjoy both personally.

[Danske]

Originally Posted by the.cosmic.pope

The only race this year where the GTs dont run is Long Beach.

The Watkins Glen short-course race with NASCAR is also DP-only, but I think the DPs will be paddocked in the weeds so paddock space and the course used may be reasons for not having GT there, as well as limiting the number of races for the GT teams for financial reasons; the GT-only Lime Rock weekend means the GTs still have a thirteen-race season even though there are two DP-only weekends.

Ah, had another thought. Looking at the VIR race this year, the Picchio's best race lap of 1:55.75, the slowest best lap of all the DPs, was 107% the fastest race lap of 1:48.15. The problem is that nine DPs had best laps in the 1:48s, nine in the 1:49s, four in the 1:50s, one with a 1:51, and two with 1:54s.

With twenty-five cars faster than the Picchio, and seventeen at least six seconds per lap faster, they'd need a lot of help through attrition to finish high in the order. Even if the fastest of the Rolex GT cars were as fast (slow?) as the Picchio it's a long, long way to just the top ten. Relatively speaking, Sato in the Super Aguri is faster and starts closer to the front.

[paul-collins]

There was some mooting about of the idea of splitting the series last year, IIRC. It seems that the idea has passed now, and the "charm of multiclass racing" has been recognized by the series sanction - at least from a running point of view.

I'm still not sure what the reasoning is for the massive split at the start.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Ah forgot about the Nextel Cup weekend, sorry about that.

the Picchio, like the Multimatic really isnt a good example to use though. Its an exceptionally poor car that has had extremely little development time. To quote one driver I know, about the Mutlimatic, "I dont know what the f**k they were thinking with that car"

I'm still not sure what the reasoning is for the massive split at the start.

Doing there best to avoid accidents I guess. Halfing the ammount of cars barreling into Turn 1 in a pack together.

[six degrees]

also, for the guys comparing GTs to LMPs in ALMS and the like, comparing GT1 cars just is not fair - the GrandAm GTs are GT2 and GT3 spec, so of course the gap is somewhat exaggerated..

[TheNewBob]

I know very little about Grand-Am, other than my own opinion about thw DP's being some of the ugliest machines I've ever set eyes on. However, I think their GT class is quite a good idea. Multi-class racing is a good thing - particularly between cars that look very different. Also the GT class there sounds like it's a little bit like the GTC class in British GT (used to be GT3, and GT Cup before that).

This to me makes it sound like the series is not in any competition with ALMS - it can leave Grand-Am GT teams in a pretty promising position too regarding where they can potentially "graduate" to. They could stay in the same series and switch to a DP, or they could stick to GT cars and move up to the ALMS GT2 class instead.

Thinking into it a little further, is it any wonder that the ALMS has it's largest numbers in the GT2 class? The 'Vettes dominate GT1, and LMP's are more expensive to run than DP's, whilst the Grand-Am GT cars are pretty low-spec and very slow.

Of course correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way it all seems to me (heck, what else is a forum for if it's not for airing personal views?), although I will admit I only know what I read on here about the subject. However, I'd be more worried if Grand-Am's GT cars got quicker and started rivalling GT2 for spec and pace - then ALMS would have something to worry about, at least until it's other classes started picking up in numbers.

[Danske]

Originally Posted by the.cosmic.pope

the Picchio, like the Multimatic really isnt a good example to use though. Its an exceptionally poor car that has had extremely little development time.

Yes, but even if the Picchio were 100% reliable and still as slow as it is now can we agree it would be *ahem* unlikely to get on the overall podium? It just seems to me that as things stand in the two series right now that running at a Picchio-like (or GT1 in ALMS-like) 107% of the fastest lap is exceptionally poor in Rolex while in the ALMS it's a potential podium if coupled with good reliability. So if in our thought experiment we sped up the Rolex GT cars to Picchio-like levels I think we find they still wouldn't find the top ten overall without a lot of attrition and FCYs. Similarly, if the ALMS GT1 cars were competing against twenty well-sorted and well-developed LMP cars I'd think that would put an end to their top-five aspirations.

Of course, if the ALMS did have twenty-plus LMP cars and the GT1 cars rarely, if ever, broke into the top ten then one would also be free to ask why the ALMS bothers with the GT classes.

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

Also the GT class there sounds like it's a little bit like the GTC class in British GT (used to be GT3, and GT Cup before that).

The GT Porsches are mostly the 997 GT3 Cup model with some restrictions, which should give you a rough idea of the performance envelope of the class. If you read the TRG press releases then their P&M tube-frame GTO.R's are at a horrible disadvantage to the Porsches and are only winning by luck and good strategy.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Grand Am also changes the minimum weight for each car to make them competitive though. All of the DPs have had there weights changed this year, and the Corvettes in the GT class too. So whilst some cars may normally be at a disadvantage, its only a matter of time until the weights for that car are altered to bring it back into play.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Danske

P&M tube-frame GTO.R

Are this tubeframe silhouette cars?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Are this tubeframe silhouette cars?

Yes, the suggestion is that all cars in GT will be tubeframe sihouette cars in the next year or so.

[Nick49]

Hello,

I have always assumed that the multi class format in sports car racing allowed for the variety of driver talent, team ambition and availability of money/sponsors required to sustain a typical long sports car race. I saw the Group C series go from being very well supported to running just eight cars in the last race at Magny Cours in 1992. There were probably a lot of reasons why the series plummeted (and I blame Max and Bernie most of all). The multi class format does allow many a sports car race to be viable. I often wonder where the ALMS would be without GT1 and GT2.

I am a BIG motorsport fan and enjoy just about anything I get to watch, either for real or on the TV. In the UK I know where to find the LMS, ALMS, Le Mans 24 Hours, Brit GT and so on. If I knew who broadcast the GrandAM races I'd be watching that as first and foremost its sports car racing and I like sports car racing.

Finally, if I had the time and money I would probably start in GT2 and relish the chance of being on the same grid as a DP or LMP. If only I won the lottery.

Nick

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally Posted by aeroehl

Another thing that bothers me about the Grand Am GT's are they are all practically NASCARS. They are all tube frame chasis with similar motors. They are not unique. As an ALMS fan, I believe that Grand Am has a solid product in their DP's and should focus just on the DP class. That seems to be the only class SPEED covers.

This could not be further from the truth. There are two distinct types of GTs in GA - "Prep 1" and "Prep 2". Quoting the GA regs:

Prep 1 Unibody GT - This category is reserved for production cars with little or no modifications. Grand American will define each car separately and specify modifications individually.

Prep 2 Semi-Tube GT – This category is for cars with modified production or tube-frame chassis. They may be front-wheel drive cars converted to rear-wheel drive or they may be cars that require physical modifications to be competitive in GT. Specified tube-frame construction is allowed. Alternative engines from the original manufacturer may be approved.


Right now, the Porsches and BMWs are Prep1, the Pontiacs and Mazdas are Prep2; Corvettes are eligible in both forms. There's a full list of which cars are eligible in which class on the grandamerican.com website.

There's a long tradition of tubeframe GTs in American racing; IMSA GTO and GTU both went that way... and TransAm ended its days that way. There's a lot of expertise in building cars that way, so why not a series where they can race at a high level? - GA's regs keep Prep1 and Prep2 cars comparable on performance...

[Danske]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Yes, the suggestion is that all cars in GT will be tubeframe sihouette cars in the next year or so.

By rule or voluntarily? Over half the GT field is still Porsches and there are still multiple Prep-1 BMWs and Corvettes running around. The Prep-2 Infinitis are reported testing, and the Mustang rumors won't quite go away, but right now there are only two Corvettes, three GTO.Rs, and one RX-8 in Prep-2. Unless the series is very sure those numbers will increase that doesn't seem quite enough to switch to only Prep-2 rules quite yet.

OTOH, the Prep-2 rules may have the potential for Porsche-like support at the track. We've heard various horror stories about teams trying to race cars without sufficient factory support--the Krohn Lambo comes foremost to mind, while with the Prep-2 rules a team has presumably bought a race car from someone who fully intends for it to be raced and to provide parts and support, or has less dependence on the factory if they choose to "go it alone" and build their own car. Turn-key race cars with at-track support do seem to be a bit popular, so maybe we will see more RX-8s, GTOs, Infinitis, Mustangs, and Corvettes in the future. Oh, there were also some Jaguar and Nissan rumors for Prep-2, IIRC, but they seem to have fizzled-out. The Canadians keep entering their Pontiac Grand Am too, but either haven't made it through tech yet or have withdrawn, to the best of my knowledge.

On the gripping hand, the DP class has shown some growth since the four-car fields of 2003, but I don't know if one can reasonably project the same growth in Prep-2 GT. *shrug*

Originally Posted by Pete Fenelon

There's a long tradition of tubeframe GTs in American racing; IMSA GTO and GTU both went that way... and TransAm ended its days that way. There's a lot of expertise in building cars that way, so why not a series where they can race at a high level? -

And in the SCCA GT classes. Heh, as someone is fond of bringing up, there were also even tubeframed 911s in IMSA.

GA's regs keep Prep1 and Prep2 cars comparable on performance...

And all the Prep-1 cars just lost 75lbs too. My crystal ball says the TRG press releases will complain about the unfairness of that one. Heh, the other teams have already accused TRG of sandbagging in the first place, though. Seriously, as of yet it doesn't appear the series is trying to squeeze-out the Prep-1 cars.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Danske

By rule

..

[Dutton]

This leads me to a question. My question may have been answered in previous posts, but my ignorance means I am unaware of it.

Why is there a GT class in the series with the DPs when there is a seperate GT series under the Rolex Sportscar Series umbrella?

You have the Sportscar one (i.e. DP-GT), the GAC, and the GT one. This is my reckoning, but perhaps I am getting myself all confused?

Also, I saw someone mention that Speed only focus on the DP-GT one. They do show the GAC and GT ones, but they tend be a good week after the event.

[Danske]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Why is there a GT class in the series with the DPs when there is a seperate GT series under the Rolex Sportscar Series umbrella?

Because there isn't. The GTs have had some separate races recently, Lime Rock just this past weekend and Phoenix last year, but there isn't a separate series of races for them. You may have been confused by the name they chose to use for the Lime Rock race, the "GT Challenge" or somesuch, or that the GAC races have been split into two one-class races, GS and ST, as well. Oh, or maybe you're thinking of the SCCA World Challenge GT races, which are sprints and not affiliated with Grand-Am.

Right now there is no toppish-level endurance series for GT cars only in the US.