When should Michael Schumacher retire?

[stripedcat]

Lauda's return to F1 was amazing. In his third race he won. Okay different times I accept. Plus of course wining in 1984 by just half a point! Even in 1985 although he had an inconsistent season he still could race strongly - the Dutch GP being a great example. Racing against Prost on duff tyres he managed to hold him off and take his last win.

Prost's return wasn't quite as strong. He knew he was coming into a championship winning car effectively. He was good in 1993, but I think you could say it wasn't the old Prost we had seen race against Piquet(in his Renault days), against Lauda(at Mclaren) and against Senna(at Mclaren and Ferrari).

[Mr V]

How the hell did Schumacher finish behind Rosberg dispite stopping only once to Nico's three?

[jab]

Originally Posted by Mr V

How the hell did Schumacher finish behind Rosberg dispite stopping only once to Nico's three?

He let him through

Plus Rosberg didn't lose anything by pitting twice under the safety car - he was going to be behind Michael in the queue regardless because they were at the back

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by jab

He let him through

Plus Rosberg didn't lose anything by pitting twice under the safety car - he was going to be behind Michael in the queue regardless because they were at the back

I knew that the third stop didn't put him behind Michael but didn't know how he got past him on the circuit.

[ralf fan]

Michael is no more getting thrashed by Rosberg. He is just getting beat instead. Which is certainly an improvement but not saying much.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mr V

How the hell did Schumacher finish behind Rosberg dispite stopping only once to Nico's three?

I posted in the wrong thread.

Seemed to me that Sutil was the manin reason why Nico got past. Schuey made a right meal of getting past after he had rejoined begin Sutil when the FI man stayed out for so long (He didn't and Rosberg just pulled away) ?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I knew that the third stop didn't put him behind Michael but didn't know how he got past him on the circuit.

This beat me entirely as well.
I thought Rosberg was a lap down!

The only explanation is that they must have trapped Schumacher behind the safety car when Rosberg pitted. Schumacher was ahead, Rosberg pitted and came out ahead of Schumacher!!??

[RF_Racer]

I think the last 2 races schumacher has been doing well. Yesterday the team once again called a poor stratergy and pulled him to pit too soon. Its silly mistakes like this and I think Shovelin is right to get shoved away from him role as race engineer. I think he is pretty useless. Its been hapening all season.

Once again the Schumacher bashers here make me laugh, he let Rosberg through as he was on fresher tyres and had a chance to attack Button.

I really wonder how sad people are and how much time they have to bash Schumacher at every chance they have. He dominated F1 in the past and he is still a great driver. If you lot have some issues in your life be it jealousy or what ever for people who have worked hard to be successful.. just get over it!

[Wims]

In the past he did so, but this is not the past. The fact is that he's getting well and truly beaten by his younger teammate this season. He also didnt look that sharp in 2005 and 2006 either for that matter.

[Knowlesy]

Jealous? Why would we be jealous of a midfield race driver?

[mrsweety]

^^ So you could beat him then?

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by mrsweety

^^ So you could beat him then?

I couldn't beat Sakon Yamamoto. Does that mean I'm unable to comment on his abilities as a Formula One driver?

[mrsweety]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I couldn't beat Sakon Yamamoto. Does that mean I'm unable to comment on his abilities as a Formula One driver?

Stands a good chance!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by mrsweety

^^ So you could beat him then?

Come on, let's not get too daft - I'd love the opportunity to try (and to earn what Mr. Schumacher does in a day), but I wouldn't beat him. Because I'm not a racing driver. But Michael can't live on past glories forever. IMO he should have stayed retired instead of risking tarnishing a fantastic history with what have been for me, in the main, mediocre performances. As always, I respect the right of others to disagree as much as I have the right to hold this opinion - whether I can drive an F1 car or not.....

[bjohnsonsmith]

I think what people tend to forget is Schumy's return was partly due to marketing by Mercedes. They've finally got their own F1 team and two German drivers and can now use this to promote their cars.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think what people tend to forget is Schumy's return was partly due to marketing by Mercedes. They've finally got their own F1 team and two German drivers and can now use this to promote their cars.

I don't see how marketing comes into it. I might look favourably on the Mercedes name because of their success in Formula 1, and that might in turn lead me to buy a Mercedes. But I can't see me beating a path to the Mercedes showroom because they employ two German drivers.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by mrsweety

^^ So you could beat him then?

Probably, as long as we had equal cars.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I don't see how marketing comes into it. I might look favourably on the Mercedes name because of their success in Formula 1, and that might in turn lead me to buy a Mercedes. But I can't see me beating a path to the Mercedes showroom because they employ two German drivers.

Marketing is about selling an image so having an all German team, drivers included, is the package they have decided to use to bring success to the F1 team and ultimately to the Mercedes brand. Mercedes obviously feel having two German drivers is important. Why did Button go to McLaren? There's was a good argument for keeping Button, he's familliar with the team, he is the WDC and Mercedes have No1 on their car. Barrichelo was no slouch either in 2009 but he was replaced with Nico Rosberg. It's classic marketing.

[Wims]

Remember that Schumacher got the itch for F1 when Massa got injured in 2009. Mercedes was pretty much the only option for Schumacher if he wanted to race again. It was not like Mercedes lured him out of retirement. And its not like Mercedes shunned Button away either, Button "betrayed" (yeah, I know, its not really a betrayal, its just business sprinkled with a dash of emotion) Mercedes by going to McLaren, not the other way round.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Wims

Remember that Schumacher got the itch for F1 when Massa got injured in 2009. Mercedes was pretty much the only option for Schumacher if he wanted to race again. It was not like Mercedes lured him out of retirement. And its not like Mercedes shunned Button away either, Button "betrayed" (yeah, I know, its not really a betrayal, its just business sprinkled with a dash of emotion) Mercedes by going to McLaren, not the other way round.

I don't know about that, I wouldn't be surprised if they did lure him. As for Button, Mercedes didn't offer to keep him. It's not often you give up your WDC. I remember Prost leaving McLaren after the business with Senna came to ahead and Mansell leaving Williams for IndyCar, inciting his comefort zone as an issue but I don't remember a team letting their newly crowned WDC go so easily.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't know about that, I wouldn't be surprised if they did lure him. As for Button, Mercedes didn't offer to keep him. It's not often you give up your WDC. I remember Prost leaving McLaren after the business with Senna came to ahead and Mansell leaving Williams for IndyCar, inciting his comefort zone as an issue but I don't remember a team letting their newly crowned WDC go so easily.

Well it became apparent that Mercedes / Brawn held talks with Schumacher prior to / at the end of last season, at Abu Dhabi specifically. Some 2-3 weeks before Button signed for McLaren, that confirmation coming just a couple of days after the Mercedes Brawn takeover was announced IIRC.

Re departing WDC's how about Damon Hill not being wanted by Williams following his 1996 WDC with them.... he ended up taking the coveted '#1' to Arrows.

Also in 1995 Schumacher won the WDC with Benetton, leaving them and took the #1 to Ferrari for 1996.

Going back a bit further, in 1977 Niki Lauda actually left Ferrari before the season was finished, immediately after tying up the WDC at Monza..... taking the #1 with him to Bernie's Brabham team for 1978.

This next part of the post is something that maybe others will find interesting given the media concentration of Favouritism within Red Bull. It highlights that what we are seeing now as favouritism is totally insignificant when compared to other happenings in F1 history. It refers to the Lauda Prost era at McLaren, and what happened there shows that this years events at RBR are relatively insignificant nuisance value rather than blatant favouritism.

Actually, continuing on the drivers who left teams after winning the WDC, Niki almost did the same at McLaren after his comeback WDC in 1984..... At some stage (I think Austria) Ron Dennis, told Niki that he would not be retained for the following year (despite a contract being in place) unless he dropped his wage to half of what had been already agreed.... Ron tried to pressure Lauda with a deadline to sign a revised contract at a much lower wage, two hours prior to the race - using 'the fact' that Rosberg had offered to drive for McLaren in 1985 at a fraction of the Lauda wage. Niki ignored the ultimatum, went out and won the race, and as Prost spun out of the race took over the WDC lead.....

Immediately after the race he is said to have not bothered to go back to the McLaren pit, but gone straight to the Renault motorhome and sat down with the Renault management before coming out of the motorhome with a contract offer matching pretty much what Lauda was earning at McLaren that year. He returned to Ron, told him of the counter offer he had from Renault, saying he was off to shower and change and should Ron not have signed to retain Lauda at the pre agreed fee (not Ron's reduced offer) by the time Niki left the circuit he would accept and sign the Renault offer....

As it happened, Ron was bluffing about the Rosberg offer.... as much also being the case with Niki's Renault offer which was a conditional offer (something to do with it needing French Trade Union approval or something of that sort)

AFAIK Niki did not leave the circuit with the McLaren contract, but he did get it shortly after, at almost the full wage. That is when the fun really started behind the scenes.

Ron then began an anti Niki scenario within McLaren that would make the RBR row to look as insignificant as it in fact is. The RD favouritism was way beyond subtle, and plainly clear for all to see. The two drivers arrived at the final race with Niki just 3.5 points ahead in the WDC with the title a straight fight between them, with no other possible winners.

At that last race of the 1984 season Lauda's car 'mysteriously' appeared to suddenly have an "electrical failure" at a critical moment during official practice (aka qualifying)..... Lauda was as a result forced to start the race that would decide the WDC between the two McLaren drivers, from 11th place, with Prost on the front row!

Then someone in the McLaren team brought out a box filled with "Prost is the 1984 champion" posters and hung them prominently on the walls in the pit garage!

However, while Prost was getting all the technical help and psychological support, he was mentally a bit stressed...... Lauda, despite all the ongoing crap, was immune to mind games, and in fact despite all the obvious and ever increasing favouritism, Lauda was poo-pooing the claims in the media telling people it was all in their imagination.

In the race Niki fought through the field, up from his 11th spot on the grid, passing Senna, Rosberg, Mansell etc to be in 2nd place behind Prost by 2/3 race distance, and knowing that was enough to take the title hung station to finish 2nd, winning the WDC by the narrowest ever half a point.

Niki went into 1985 with the #1 on his car, knowing he was clearly disliked by Ron, who had made Mclaren openly even more pro Prost than 1984.....

Strangely enough whilst Prost had but one mechanical DNF in the entire 1985 season, and won the title, Niki, known for his 'mechanical sympathy', had mechanical failures at 11 of the 16 races that year.

Niki still managed to score points in the few races he finished, including his final GP win at Zandvoort '85.

Things deteriorated and went downhill within the team, and by mid year Lauda had decided to retire from F1 at the end of the year.... At the Austrian GP 1985 Niki held a press conference confirming his retirement. Ron Dennis, specifically not invited to Niki's personal PC, gatecrashed the conference, then stood up in front of the Austrian media and made a complete fool of himself, refusing to acknowledge any of Lauda's significant efforts for the team during the past four years.

Unsurprisingly, Prost led the race away from pole, but Niki fought throught to take the lead from Alain, a position he held until without warning a few laps from the end, Lauda had an engine blow, leaving Prost to cruise past and inherit the Austrian GP win.

The next race was the Dutch GP at Zandvoort where Niki came through from 10th on the grid to take the lead after the tyre change pit stops, and then defended superbly with Prost right on his tail for the rest of the race. As it happened, Lauda had pitted earlier than most because of a tyre problem, and had asked for different compound tyres to be fitted when he stopped. McLaren ignored Lauda's wishes and gave him the same compounds he was having problems with, apparently 'by mistake'.

Niki thus rejoined with the wrong compound tyres fitted. Prost then pitted a few laps later, got the tyres Lauda wanted, and rejoined IIRC in theid behind Lauda and Senna. Prost dispensed with Senna and quickly cut into Niki's lead as a result of having the tyres Lauda had requested but not been given.

The last few laps were edge of the seat stuff, with Prost on better tyres right under Niki's gearbox, both across the grass and kerbs for the final few laps. Niki held on to win the closest race of the year despite McLarens deliberate attempts to derail him.

Video review 1985 Dutch GP with comments and overview from Lauda

It was no surprise that Niki's McLaren never finished another race that year after the Dutch victory, mechanical failure interrupting every race. In South Africa Lauda passed Prost to take 2nd position in the race.... the next lap the car suffered a failure, allowing Prost to take back 2nd whilst Niki was stopped trackside!

Niki's final race was at the end of season inaugral Australian GP at Adelaide. Niki took the lead in the middle of the race..... soon after his brakes inexplicably failed and he ended up in the wall and out of the race.

Sorry if that little account is a bit off topic, but as mentioned I thought some might be interested to see and read about how team favouritism has been far worse than we have seen in the last decade or so, moreso even than the Schumi Ferrari days. And by favouritism I am talking not only 'emotional' but also technical and mechanical favouritism.

Lauda shrugged far more blatant favouritism off than Mark could even dream of being possible, and Niki did what he knew he had to.... to ignore it was even happening, and fight to win on merit and application. No "Not bad for a #2" comments or backhanded digs at the team, despite such events as mentioned when Ron hijacked Niki's retirement announcement press conference, Prost 1984 WDC posters on the pitwall before the race, wrong tyres being fitted and repeated mystery car failures.

I can just imagine Webber's reaction to a mystery Q2 car failure next weekend, especially if he was to return to the pit garage to find "Vettel 2010 WDC" posters all over the wall. Mark goes into melt down over parts he didnt even like, amplifying irrelevant incidents into media events!

Basically nowadays, with a few exceptions, they are mostly all a bunch of mollycoddled egocentric whingeing wimps . Much the pity.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by E.B

Well it became apparent that Mercedes / Brawn held talks with Schumacher prior to / at the end of last season, at Abu Dhabi specifically. Some 2-3 weeks before Button signed for McLaren, that confirmation coming just a couple of days after the Mercedes Brawn takeover was announced IIRC.

Re departing WDC's how about Damon Hill not being wanted by Williams following his 1996 WDC with them.... he ended up taking the coveted '#1' to Arrows.

Also in 1995 Schumacher won the WDC with Benetton, leaving them and took the #1 to Ferrari for 1996.

Going back a bit further, in 1977 Niki Lauda actually left Ferrari before the season was finished, immediately after tying up the WDC at Monza..... taking the #1 with him to Bernie's Brabham team for 1978.

I remember at the time Damion Hill talking about the deterioration of his relationship with Williams and the similarity to Nigel Mansell's experience.

The Button's situation is quite different and suggests replacing Button with Schumi was very much part of the larger Mercedes game plan and marketing strategy.

[Spritle]

I think Michael's final retirement will come at the same time Dieter pulls the Team Mercedes F1 plug which I believe will come sooner rather than later unless something dramatic happens results wise.

I just can't see them pumping this much money into it for much longer. Besides, it would be the perfect way for Schumi to end his folly with the excuse that the team was pulled out from under him.

[Mach3]

Easy answer to this one surely - end of 2006!

[Tin top racer]

Originally Posted by Mach3

Easy answer to this one surely - end of 2006!

Agreed! Maybe even 2004.