How can we improve this qualifying lark?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by yap

I got a little annoyed during the TV coverage of the Shootout

One driver would have a timer for the lap with split times, and then some they had nothing

I can understand if there was a technical error, but I didn't hear any explanation

I dont see the point of the shootout. Its supposed to be a "package for television" as invented by the folks at Indy all those years ago, and adapted at the Bathurst race... every round is so tedious, especially when all the drivers do at the end of their runs is whinge about tyre temperature.

An all in, balls out, 20 minute qualifying session, with split times, and the entire 20 minutes broadcast, maybe post-produced to get some sexiness into the process, some information, some real time stuff... would be a much much better solution than now.

It would leave time for more supports, or a longer, or even extra, race on Saturday

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

I dont see the point of the shootout. Its supposed to be a "package for television" as invented by the folks at Indy all those years ago, and adapted at the Bathurst race... every round is so tedious, especially when all the drivers do at the end of their runs is whinge about tyre temperature.

An all in, balls out, 20 minute qualifying session, with split times, and the entire 20 minutes broadcast, maybe post-produced to get some sexiness into the process, some information, some real time stuff... would be a much much better solution than now.

It would leave time for more supports, or a longer, or even extra, race on Saturday

i agree with the shoot out point, it does not seem to work well with the rest of qualifying

it seems to reward those who come out first as they still have warmth in there tyres and are able to set fast times.

but i like the rest of qualifying on the saturday

i think 20 minutes is to short on the sunday

also why no penalty for todd kelly driving JC off the road, it seemed a bit harsh to me, clerly no racing room of any sort

[Senna05]

GTR, I disagree regarding Qualy - and the top ten has been around alot longer than the Indy days - Hardies Heores???

However, IIIIFFF there are TWO races per event, the regs need to be the same for both - so the qualy needs to be the same!

They need to cut something from Saturday and add something to Sunday to even it out - for mine, kill Leg 2, have 2 x 20 minutes legs and a Top 10 per day, ORR use Saturday's qualifying Leg 1 and have a leg 2 and Shootout for both.

It's in the interest of fairness that both races have the same regs, yes?

[GTRMagic]

Mike Raymond has always stated that Hardie's Heroes was an adaption of the Indy 500 qualifying system... even later when it became "Tooheys Top Gun"

It doesnt make sense to have 2 different qualifying processes for the 2 races.

What benefit do the fans get from that??

In the TOCA days there would be a separate qualifying session for each race... whats to stop VESA doing the very same thing.. the difference being, it should be at the same time each day

For example, if the format is for 2 races for the weekend, one Saturday, one Sunday, the qualifying session is at 10am, the race starts at 1pm.

Makes the format consistent across the race weekends regardless of where the event is held.

It works for F1 for example.

If the qualifying session is to be meaningful, the amount of time allotted needs to be varied across circuits, as a function of laptimes. Take an assumption as to how many laps across a qualifying session a car should be able to get, say 15, then make that much time available for qualifying, plus a double time in and out lap.

At Symmons this would be ~15 minutes for running, plus 4 minutes for in and out.

The drivers could then in theory get 4 full speed single lap runs at qualifying.

At Adelaide this would be ~23 minutes for running, plus 6 minutes for in and out.

If the underlying assumption is a driver can get 4 single lap shootout laps from the car... just by changing tyres, not setup, this would have to be more entertaining for fans than a different setup each race day?

[peckstar]

i think it makes a lot of sense to have two different qualifying methods, we have two different race formats (seperate topic) why not have two differnt qualifying formats.

i think that they need to fix the tv coverage of the saturday qualifying though, lots of improvement possible

and i think they need to have a bigger gap before the shoot out to fix the problem we had on the weekend where the first runners out had warmth in there tyres

[Tourer]

The situation of more heat in the tyres for the first cars out has been there and obvious all year - Symmons was probably even more obvious.

When shootouts were run at most rounds a few years ago, there was a gap between the end of qualifying and the shootout specifically to deal with the question of residual heat in the tyres so that everyone had a fair go.

If shootouts are to continue then those people making the calls on how it is run should have a think about that.

Personally, I think that it is a bit weird having the two different types of qualifying over a weekend but it is a good spectacle - I have been really enjoying the 20 minute sessions.

GTR is correct on the time length issue - again, this was looked at in the past and the session (which was a 20 minute session for each half of the field in those days) was adjusted according to the track. Phillip Island was longer, for example to allow more laps.

[NewsStalker]

Formula Holden also had separate qualifying sessions.

However, what none of the older regs took into account (and don;t know if the V8;s have done so) is what happens IF there are issues in one or other of the 2 sessions that affect timing. This was never clarified under either TOCA or FH when either cars transmitters or complete systems failed.

[marcus]

I feel it should be an enduro thing only , PI and Bathurst , it glams it up for those events but these days we get to the top 10 at bathurst and we all go "yep here we go another top 10" woop eeeee !!!!

a straight shootout for quali at all round except for the enduro's I say.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Formula Holden also had separate qualifying sessions.

However, what none of the older regs took into account (and don;t know if the V8;s have done so) is what happens IF there are issues in one or other of the 2 sessions that affect timing. This was never clarified under either TOCA or FH when either cars transmitters or complete systems failed.

And red flags due to incidents..

[Rachel Richards]

This is very left of centre, but MIGHT just work.

Sunday grid positions could be determined by the following system.

Saturday race grid positions are listed 1-30. with positions equalling a numerical value:
Then Sunday morning Q 2 ends up the same, with the numbers added together, and the grid made up of lowest to highest score.

Any points ties (as there was below) see the highest finisher in the race moving above the other car.

R2 grid was this:

1 Jamie Whincup
2 Todd Kelly
3 Greg Murphy
4 Will Davison
5 Mark Winterbottom
6 Steven Richards
7 Fabian Coulthard
8 James Courtney
9 Steven Johnson
10 Garth Tander
11 Shane Van Gisbergen
12 Russell Ingall
13 Lee Holdsworth
14 Rick Kelly
15 Jason Bargwanna
16 Craig Lowndes
17 Dale Wood
18 Jason Bright
19 Alex Davison
20 Jason Richards
21 Michael Caruso
22 Jack Perkins
23 Michael Patrizi
24 David Reynolds
25 Paul Dumbrell
26 Cameron McConville
27 Tony D'Alberto
28 Tim Slade
29 Marcus Marshall
30 Dean Fiore


But under a combined system, as listed, the Sunday race would have started like this ?

1 Todd Kelly
2 Will Davison
3 Jamie Whincup
4 Garth Tander
5 Steven Johnson
6 Greg Murphy
7 Russell Ingall
8 Shane Van Gisbergen
9 Fabian Coulthard
10 Steven Richards
11 Mark Winterbottom
12 Craig Lowndes
13 Lee Holdsworth
14 Rick Kelly
15 Michael Caruso
16 Jason Bargwanna
17 Alex Davison
18 Jason Richards
19 James Courtney
20 Cameron McConville
21 Jack Perkins
22 David Reynolds
23 Jason Bright
24 Dale Wood
25 Michael Patrizi
26 Marcus Marshall
27 Tim Slade
28 Tony D'Alberto
29 Paul Dumbrell
30 Dean Fiore


Personally I think it gives reward two ways, and is half old, half new.

Happy to hear any feedback.

[GTRMagic]

Maybe you dont need a 2nd qualifying session...

Maybe you take the fastest lap out of R1 and use those times as the qualifying positions for R2. At Symmons for example, if there were a 3rd race, Mr Bright would be on the front row!

A team with troubles in the first race would then be incentivised to fix a car and get it out to go super quick and get a good gridspot in R2.

The challenge is around the cars with technical issues on L1 and dont get a run at a decent time... but that's as luck filled as a qualifying session

Food for thought!

[DJJ]

simple you race where you finished, I hate this stupid ****. It is all about entertainment and I hate it, let the people that work hard reap the rewards or go back to sprint racing.

[Pro Racer]

Originally Posted by DJJ

simple you race where you finished, I hate this stupid ****. It is all about entertainment and I hate it, let the people that work hard reap the rewards or go back to sprint racing.

agree, same as get rid of the CPS while your at it. real motorsport fans want to see racing and passing on the track among the quickest and best guys out there.

[peckstar]

how does CPs limit though pro? or the current qualifying system?

[Pro Racer]

i would rather see the best cars out the front going 10/10ths at it without the thought of a forced pitstop. also i would like to see that carried on throughout the weekend and not be jumbled again for R2.

[peckstar]

pretty boring really, one car skips away into the distance and the punters claim the racing is boring.

did you have a problem with today or yesterdays races

[Pro Racer]

other then the blocking not really but the 2 stop CPS at Symons being a small track made them trip over eachother abit with the different strategies.

[racer69]

I think the 20min all in system is a good thing, brings another fine art back into qualifying, getting a clean run.

The Saturday 3-part system is awfully drawn out considering it only counts for a short 100km sprint, it fitted abit better last year considering it had a direct effect on three races, not just one.

[Razor]

Here's my project outcome broken down (with a thirty car grid)

Philip Island and Bathurst: Two 20 minute sessions. Ten cars are striked out and the end of each session. Top ten go into the usual Top 10 Shootout. Cars can be refuelled and tyres changed between the two sessions. Cars in the Shootout will have to carry their current run tyres and fuel load into the Sunday race (ala F1).

Non endurance "long/distance" races: Two 20 minute sessions. Ten cars are striked out per session. 10 minute session for top ten cars. Top ten cars must carry current tyres and fuel load into the first race. For the second race, cars line up where they finished from the first race.

Sprint races: Cars are given a random position number. Cars then have a 15 lap race to gain pole for the Sunday race. (The old dash for cash system)

[Malfunction Junction]

Ahem,

A few years ago, F1 had single lap qually for all cars. Order determined by finishing order of previous race. If you hadn't started the previous event you were first.

Negatives;

Weather variables, potentially track condition if anybody blows it big time.

Plusses;

Everyone gets a crack at the same format. It's another skill the drivers have to master. It can all be over in 45 odd minutes, much more quickly than the current format. Gives all drivers some sponsor exposure. No *****ing about traffic.

Since it's a 1 lap exercise, allow use of the option tyre.

In F1 there were a few daggy efforts and a few pearlers that ranked up there with the most exciting races.

I like the Fastest lap idea for the 2nd race. Provides incentive for those with a drama in the first to have a crack for the 2nd.

Worth a thought, perhaps?

[deeks6]

I've got a RADICAL idea ... no, REALLY radical. Try this:

All cars have 2 qualifying sessions - one on Friday, one on Saturday morning (so you can still have a crack if you wreck on Friday). Fastest time gets Pole, slowest time starts last.

Pick yourselves up, I know its hard to fully comprehend the complexity of this but it will grow on you after a while.

But wait, there's more:
The grid positions for Race 2 or 3 (if there is one) are determined by the finishing position of Race 1 (or race 2 if theres a third).
Top 10 Shootouts are for Bathurst only. Its unfair anywhere else (refer Symmons with GT on warmer tyres).

Yes, I know ... its way too logical and fair to be considered seriously

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by deeks6

All cars have 2 qualifying sessions - one on Friday, one on Saturday morning. Fastest time gets Pole, slowest time starts last.

The grid positions for Race 2 or 3 (if there is one) are determined by the finishing position of Race 1 (or race 2 if there's a third).
Top 10 Shootouts are for Bathurst only.

I'm sold, let's have this.

[wide open]

You will find tyre temp issues in the top 10 of Winton and Symmonds Plains will be gone come Hidden Valley.

SUNDAY FULL FEILD SHOOT OUT

Whats wrong with mixing it up
Whats Boring would be having the same thing each day!!

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

I dont see the point of the shootout. Its supposed to be a "package for television" as invented by the folks at Indy all those years ago, and adapted at the Bathurst race... every round is so tedious, especially when all the drivers do at the end of their runs is whinge about tyre temperature.

An all in, balls out, 20 minute qualifying session, with split times, and the entire 20 minutes broadcast, maybe post-produced to get some sexiness into the process, some information, some real time stuff... would be a much much better solution than now.

It would leave time for more supports, or a longer, or even extra, race on Saturday

Abandon the two round per weekend rubbish, revert to progressive grid, then we don't need two sets of qualifying.

The only reason it all exists iis because VESA is overly sensitive about the Adelaide 500 format and how the Sunday race winner didn't always won the round.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by wide open

You will find tyre temp issues in the top 10 of Winton and Symmonds Plains will be gone come Hidden Valley.

SUNDAY FULL FEILD SHOOT OUT

Whats wrong with mixing it up
Whats Boring would be having the same thing each day!!

They tried the full field shootout once at Eastern Creek a few years back. It took a huge amount of time and was boring as watching bats create excrement in a darkened cave with no lights.

There's mixing it up and trying an idea that frankly, sucked the big one and saying, OK, we won't do that again.