Audi LMP1 Discussion

[deggis]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

A video of the Audi R18 e-tron quattro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfYDwhDTLes

You get the feeling that the cameraman is doing a bad job on purpose. Also as if the interlacing lines (in the picture) were there for a reason.

[Gingers4Justice]

I don't like diesels. I don't like the big honking fins. I've never been particularly phond of Audis.

Yet the new R18 in the quattro livery is already one of my favourite racing cars of all time. It's iconic already!

[Purist]

Is the wing on the new R18 any lower than it was on last year's car? I'm just wondering, because if the rear wing has been moved, and they've had to redo the fenders without the louvers, I'd have some possible concerns about the balance of these cars. The last thing you need with one of these machines is a car with a natural tendency to oversteer.

The other piece that bothers me is that the holes just about have to increase drag. The LMP1s are already going hell-bent-for-leather, especially in traffic. Making it harder to pull those inter-class passes off on the straights seems like a really bad idea, if that is the net impact of these changes for 2012.

[deggis]

Full gallery of the presentation: http://www.fourtitude.com/gallery/ga...ich%20Airport#

i.e. real life photos:

[joeb]

normally i would think cars with an asymmetrical livery would look wierd, but Audi pulls it off again!

[alexkiller8]

beyond all this, in the #1 treluyer will be the third driver? so no full wec entrance?

[MitchZ06]

Looks freaking awesome

[The Badger]

I reckon its the nicest livery Audi have had for ages .

[chernaudi]

Audi on their entry lists usually list their drivers in alphabetical order based on last name initial. It's already been hinted that Ben might be Andre's teammate in the WEC, and Fassler will be a part time/reserve driver outside of the endurance races, and he and Jarvis might do quite a bit of GT racing this year.

So I assume that the "Ultra" R18s will run paint schemes similar to the Sebring cars (which is what the #3 R18 pictured is according to Audi sources), while the e-trons will have the "retro" quattro paint schemes?

[knighty]

Looking at this picture of the hybrid system

http://www.donaukurier.de/_/tools/pi...CMELEM=2302448

This is noticably smaller than the porsche system, and dare I say much smaller and lighter than Toyotas ultracapacitor route which Toyota are now admitting is circa 100Kg - cripes, looks quite neat actually, the front motor-generator is quite small, looks about 15Kg-20kg to me, I suspect the whole system is about 60Kg

I wonder if they will follow Toyotas boast of saying they could easily achieve 1MJ between braking points........perhaps they both might start to lobby the FIA/ACO in order to let the hybrid systems stretch develop, but if the y do I think they should reduce the fuel allowance further, as it should add fuel economy, not performance......hmmmmm

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

A video of the Audi R18 e-tron quattro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfYDwhDTLes I think that Audi already released pictures of this Paul Ricard last year.

A longer version of the video, which includes an interview with Wolfgang Appel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoHt04u9SVY.
He says that they tried to regain the performance loss of the regulation changes (smaller restrictor, mandatory fender holes), that they made the car lighter, and that they improved the visibility and the air cooling in the cockpit.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by knighty

This is noticably smaller than the porsche system, and dare I say much smaller and lighter than Toyotas ultracapacitor route which Toyota are now admitting is circa 100Kg - cripes, looks quite neat actually, the front motor-generator is quite small, looks about 15Kg-20kg to me, I suspect the whole system is about 60Kg

This video gives a bit of extra information about the hybrid system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlSxA7z03Gw.

The front axle is driven by two 75 kW electric engines. This is exactly the same specification as the hybrid system of the Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid.

Dr. Ullrich explains that the complete hybrid system weighs around 80-90 kg.

According to http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97739 the flywheel accumulator is supplied by Williams Hybrid Power. I agree that the flywheel seems a bit smaller than in the Porsche. However, the picture is only meant to illustrate the concept and it is probably not 100% accurate.

Judging from the picture the electric motors and power electronics are water cooled.

[TF110]

So how heavy is Toyota's system compared to Audi's? About equal? I wonder the benefits of each of them compared to the other. Be a very interesting topic of flywheel vs. capacitor.

[Robbo28]

Hadn't noticed "Akrapovic" stickers on previous Audi's - 3rd party exhaust and particulate filter development perhaps??

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Robbo28

Hadn't noticed "Akrapovic" stickers on previous Audi's - 3rd party exhaust and particulate filter development perhaps??

I also noticed this. http://www.akrapovic.com/ promotes that they are an Audi Sport partner and that Audi won the 24 hours of Le Mans in 2010 and 2011 with an Akropovic exhaust system.

The R10 and R15 used a particulate filter from Dow Automotive Systems. I assume that the R18 does as well. However, since last year Dow is no longer mentioned as a partner/sponsor.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by TF110

So how heavy is Toyota's system compared to Audi's? About equal? I wonder the benefits of each of them compared to the other. Be a very interesting topic of flywheel vs. capacitor.

2 x 75KW - very interesting.....yep same spec but the axle based motor generator is a very different design to the porsche system which was a huge mother, it now looks buch more compact

well it now sounds like the Audi system is only 10-20Kg lighter that Toyotas solution, which is not a huge amount, but noteworthy none the less........

I think the biggest difference will be the speed limitation of the front based systems, according to page 12 of the march RCE the new rules state that the front based KERS systems cannot apply power to the track at speeds less than 120kph......although I cannot yet find the wording in the 2012 regs, but am sure its there somewhere!!!.......so despite all the quattro marketing bull........its really not going to help in low speed corners, which is where you need 4wd........the rear based systems can activate at any time, so Toyota may be on the money by developing both options and choosing the best performer.

[MitchZ06]

Audi really had no option from a marketing standpoint, I've got no doubt technically they've optimised the system.

[TF110]

Since Toyota is/was running both systems, if they run the rear system they don't need to have the other front-running system onboard. So that will at least give them the chance to explore the way to go in sending power to the rear wheels. I don't know which would be better, and I wonder how the front drive system would work? Presumably a kers type of push-button?

[MitchZ06]

Not allowed, needs to be a throttle operated system (i.e not independent of the combustion engine throttle).

[CTD]

If one thinks of the R10's torque problems out of the corners, it gives a good idea to why Audi would want a front driven hybrid system. Besides isn't it only thru Mulsanne Corner, Arnage and out of the pits, that they hit speeds below 120km/h?.
Should it rain, the Audi system will still be very usable, where as a rearwheel driven hybrid would have the extra power eaten by the TC.

[Bentley03]

Mark Howson's photos from the launch are free to view on Daily Sportscar.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by knighty

2 x 75KW - very interesting.....yep same spec but the axle based motor generator is a very different design to the porsche system which was a huge mother, it now looks buch more compact

well it now sounds like the Audi system is only 10-20Kg lighter that Toyotas solution, which is not a huge amount, but noteworthy none the less........

Earlier this year we already discussed the weight and power output of the Porsche/Williams hybrid system: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...78#post3011078

The weight of Porsche/Williams flywheel accumulator is 47 kg. The whole Porsche hybrid solution weighs 105 kg in total, mainly because of its heavy front axle motor/generator. So Audi was able to shed off around 20 kg with a more compact front axle and shorter electric wiring and cooling tubing.

The original Supra hybrid system, when it was put in the open Dome S101.5 in late 2008, reportedly weighed a massive 200 kg. Toyota has not released weight numbers of the THS-R solution in the TS030, but there are some hints in the RCE article.

'Our hybrid system is huge and heavy,' admits a surprisingly candid Murata. 'We have to keep to the minimum weight of 900 kg. Usually without the hybrid system, the car is around 750-800 kg. The heaviest sub-system on the car is the hybrid, but we can also carry ballast.'

'The TS030 chassis has clearly been designed to be able to accommodate the four-wheel drive system and the wheelbase and overall weight distribution have taken that into account. When we use the rear system we have to put ballast in the front. The ACO does not limit the weight of the hybrid system, but it is difficult to keep to the 900 kg, and the ballast is actually very small," explains Murata.

So knighty's estimate of 100 kg seems accurate. The front system is probably a bit heavier than the rear system.

The additional weight of the Toyota solution can be explained by the difference in capacity. The Nisshinbo supercapacitors in the Toyota TS030 can store 1 MJ, whereas the Williams flywheel in the Porsche 911 and therefore probably also in the Audi R18 e-tron quattro can only store around 700 kW.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...ybrid-flywheel explains that Porsche choose the flywheel accumulator instead supercapacitors because it weighs less for the same energy capacity.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Mark Howson's photos from the launch are free to view on Daily Sportscar.

Thanks for the link. At the moment the car still misses the fender holes. So we can expect a slightly different aero package for Spa.

The windows of the presentation car are tinted black and when the photographers were allowed on the stage, the driver door was shut. Audi clearly does not yet want to show the interior of the car, probably because the flywheel is positioned in the passenger compartment.

Toyota on the contrary allowed pictures to be taken from the supercapacitors during their presentation.

[Victor_RO]

One conundrum about the hybrid system here though: is the 120kph lower limit for activation only with the engine running? Because they still have to do the ACO's test of 450m at 60kph on electric power only, and that would be a bit of a contradiction in regulations...

[MitchZ06]

I'd say that's on the track, the 450m test is in pitlane and it should mean that these hybrids will be able to travel down pitlane solely on electric power (inlap the hybrid power is stored instead of released over the course of the lap to facilitate this?)