Audi LMP1 Discussion

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The comment from Ullrich could be directed to the ACO/FIA in influence their decision in the BoP adjustment after Spa.

This could also be an attempt at mind gaming with Toyota. Audi probably also read about Nakajima's lap time (3m25) in the simulator and they are afraid

We need a like button

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi is quoting 510bhp as the rated power of the R18 for 2012. That's based on the 6% reduction in power under the ACO's regs from their orginal "claimed" 540. Problem is that we all know that Audi and Peugeot easily made closer to 570-580+ last year, and time and time again, Audi and Pug found more power to make up the difference in the regs while refining the cars in other areas.

The air restrictor reduction (-7%) and the boost reduction (-6.6%) can be partially compensated with more engine development.

However, the major rule change in 2012 for diesel powered cars is the reduction in fuel tank size (-7.7%).

But Knighty thinks the most significant detail might be the 5 liter fuel tank reduction (a 7.7% fuel reduction), "...that really is a kick in the balls for the diesels, the numbers imply this will equate to 1 lap reduction between fuel stops at Le Mans." Knighty's numbers are backed up with one source estimating a 1.3 lap fuel range reduction for the diesels.

source: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by deggis

That is just so corporate PR-filtered "bla bla bla" that it's almost disgusting.

Now something fantastic from the Audi PR department: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J7kNQSWOFo

[Aysedasi]

Yep, nice video - it even has that stunning sideways leap in it.......

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The comment from Ullrich could be directed to the ACO/FIA in influence their decision in the BoP adjustment after Spa.

This could also be an attempt at mind gaming with Toyota. Audi probably also read about Nakajima's lap time (3m25) in the simulator and they are afraid

Audi or rather Ullrich, Plays this Card every year. IMO Audi will still be fast despite the restrictor imposed on the R18. we all know how this is going to play out - at sebring, Audi will be sandbagging, at spa where the Toyota's are present, they will sandbag even more. same at the lemans tests. then come lemans weekend, they will magically find some seconds (Ullrich will BS about where they gained it) and Audi wins Le mans.i find this behavior pretty sad. perhaps he should explain how a restricted engine, which starts at 510bhp and ends up with 570 at the end of the season. FIA and ACO needs to do what F1 is doing and freeze engine development so people like Ullrich and co. will have to win with skill instead of Bs'ing their way through the championship.

[Aysedasi]

Just like any other team (manager) would if he (they) had the chance, let's face it.......

[alexkiller8]

the same restricted engine can develope 500hp or also 650hp with different function and fuel maps that are used thinking about the track and the kind of race. So even with shorter restrictors size the engine (that i guess has been optimized in the meanwhile) can develope the same power output of 2011... just with more fuel consumaption. Unfortunately with 2012 fuel tank for diesel isn't maybe the best choice, so (as always) it's all about to find the right compromise between power and fuel consumaption, the car will lose some hp and maybe 1 lap of autonomy from last year but for sure will get a better handling and aero package to run faster than 2011.

[Aysedasi]

Sorry, I'm not being rude but what is '...1 lap of autonomy....'?

[alexkiller8]

in 2011 audi and peugeot had a fuel tank of 65L, in the LM race peugeot cars were able to do an average stint of 11 (sometimes 12) laps, while audi because of a more aggressive strategy (engine more powerfull) than peugeot paid this with a less fuel efficency with an average of 10 laps per stint (with the concrete risk to don't be able to run the last lap of the race because of this). In 2012 their stint very realisticly could be of 9 laps (or 10 again if they won't use a very powerfull map) because now diesel fuel tank is 60L (58L for r18 e-tron quattro).

[Aysedasi]

OK, thanks, I follow you.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

FIA and ACO needs to do what F1 is doing and freeze engine development so people like Ullrich and co. will have to win with skill instead of Bs'ing their way through the championship.

Amazing idea! So instead of current mess that is at least gradually getting better there would be a mess and petrol deficit infinitely. Plus as proven in F1, this is the most certain way to close the door for new manufacturers.

ps. 2014 regs.

[alexkiller8]

all the engine (but the audi and new toyota one) actualy used in lmp1/lmp2 are already frozen since years... just think to judd engines that get an update just once in a range of 3-4 years. The 2012 lmp2 engines i'm pretty sure are still untouched since their homologation.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

all the engine (but the audi and new toyota one) actualy used in lmp1/lmp2 are already frozen since years... just think to judd engines that get an update just once in a range of 3-4 years. The 2012 lmp2 engines i'm pretty sure are still untouched since their homologation.

Lack of development is not the same thing as a rule that forbids development.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by deggis

Lack of development is not the same thing as a rule that forbids development.

i know, but de facto the engines specs are frozen however.

[MitchZ06]

It's obvious alexkiller8s first language isn't english so I'd take some phrases with a grain of salt

[MulsanneMike]

We've received definitive word on the R18 e-tron quattro's gearbox material...see the site.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by deggis

Amazing idea! So instead of current mess that is at least gradually getting better there would be a mess and petrol deficit infinitely. Plus as proven in F1, this is the most certain way to close the door for new manufacturers.

ps. 2014 regs.

Ok, Maybe i didn't word that properly, but with the advantage that the diesels have over the petrol's i think its wise that FIA and ACO pay attention to the development of engine types. and restrict them accordingly to negate any advantage. a 13% reduction in power means Jack sh**t when it comes to Audi. if they wanted to be serious maybe something past 20% would have Sufficed but like i said we'll know after Sebring and the rest. even if the Toyota's not there, the HPD Honda will be there and no one wants to see the 5-6 second gap between Diesels and petrol's, even with sandbagging. Put it this way, this year Toyota pretty much threw a lifeline to the WEC after the Peugeot Pull out and may have accidentally gave Audi a shot at winning the first WEC title. They will both do well to play a Fair Game or WEC will go down the same alley LMS did in the last few years.

[skeeskirrt]

In hindsight, was all that talk about a quick change gearbox last year a bit off the mark? Perhaps they just weren’t ready with the all carbon gearbox/gearcase last year, and the small metallic gearbox suspended in a carbon frame is still less weight than a full metallic gearbox/gearcase? I dunno.

[gwyllion]

That seems a reasonable explanation. The 2011 gearbox was an interim solution and bought Audi an additional year to develop/perfect the all carbon gearbox case.

[chernaudi]

That probably is the case, since the work on the hybrid version of the R18 started in 2/10. Audi probably wanted to test the theory while working on the definitve version of the carbon gearbox casing. Since it's known that a carbon structure can handle the loadings of the rear suspension and can be properly cooled using air from the tub interior, combined with likely bench and dyno testing of the CFGC, like with the hybrid system, has given them the basis on which to proceed.

In reality, I think that in a way the whole 2011 R18 was almost an interm car, or at least that's how it was treated in the end, considering the visibility problems, the fact that Audi has altered the front suspension (more mechanical grip and the front wheel drive electric motors), and possibly even altered the rear suspension somewhat to achieve similar aims as well as with the redesigned casing. Also, I read earlier in this thread that someone from Audi Sport did also say that the post LM bodywork was excessively draggy for what they were aiming for, and it seems that Audi didn't make a ton of changes to it because they had something more versatile and better in store for 2012.

That leaves us wondering how much of an improvement that the 2012 car is compared to the 2011 car. It's probably a fairly big improvement overall, since its lighter, probably has better grip and handling, and should be more aero efficient. It should also have better visibility--maybe not a huge improvement on the RF corner, but any improvement is welcomed there, especially for shorter drivers.

Of course, what muddies the waters is that Audi will have 2011 cars entered for the race at Sebring, which will have to carry 15kgs of ballast for BoP as they're not running the fender holes. I do think that Audi may still have a speed advantage at Sebring in terms of sheer, ultimate pace. But there will be safety cars that until the field gets thinned down that will keep them from building up a huge advantage, and the 2011 car had horrid visibility for drivers who weren't tall enough to look over the front fenders.

Audi may win Sebring, but it probably won't be a cake walk, at least early on, and I don't think that we can draw any conclusions about how the 2012 will stack up until the week after when Audi does their endurance/evaluation tests.

[Razgriz8484]

Am I the only person who actually agrees with Audi with that latest interview? I do agree that the diesels may be at a disadvantage this year. However, I think Audi will probably sand bag all the way up to Le Mans. But hey Peugeot and any other team would do the same exact thing. It's racing and part of any sport. You don't show your hand till the big show.

I don't see why some people here expect cars that are 4-6 years old with engines that are just as old to compete with brand new cars and new engines that are being constantly developed. Factory vs a privateer the factory most of the time will win on sheer outright pace. Why? Because they have the budget to develop the cars constantly and keep moving forward. While there is only so much you can do with a chassis that is so old.

I completely agree. Audi and Peugeot were so ahead because they had the cash to do so. I guarantee if we had a PROPER factory works effort. It probably would have been closer. Granted I still think Audi and Puegeot would still be ahead. But I think the gap would have been alot closer.

I think we may have a surprise this year at some tracks. The new HPD and Toyotas should do well I think. I don't expect wins for them (Unless something happens to the Audis) But we will see.

Yes I am a Audi supporter but also I do support the private teams. I enjoy seeing them do well

[Aysedasi]

Well I agree. I think I said so briefly at post #2832.....


What I don't think is that they have any right at all to complain if they're not dealt the aces......

[TerribleWone]

Originally Posted by NelisB

Ok I tried to layover the 2 audi r18 photos to see where there are any differences. The images don't really match up perfectly but enough to see where the 2 cars differ.
First thing I notice is the lower wing on the Hybrid. I think this is the low downforce setup for le mans and maybe Spa?
The second this is the front fenders on the new car are less round. They have more of a blunt edge to them.

I probably have missed a couple of things so here's the image.

I am working on something similar but in illustrator. I think the rear wing and BHF appearing lower is just down to the optics and postion of the camera. Its just a slight change in perspective.

[chernaudi]

And in this climate, the ACO and FIA are very willing to cater to anyone who will give them the money and such to help promote the series so they don't have to. They'll give a hand to Audi out of loyalty, and they'll give a hand out to Toyota for stepping up to help fill the gap that Peugeot left.

I think that automatically that Audi and Toyota will be at an advantage because of their resources. Of course, the comments by Dr. Ullrich refer to what is "on paper". What was "on paper" didn't slow Audi or Peugeot down in the past.

The big problem is for private teams is that, in addition to a relative lack of resources and having to use customer chassis and customer spec or off the shelf engines, they can't use the "green" loopholes that Audi and Toyota are "exploiting"--believe me, private teams will complain that Audi and Toyota are favored because of their hybrid systems eventually. They'll probably say that as far as road car relevance and helping the environment, diesel engines, ethanol, and hybrid systems are good and all, but as far as them winning, it's a deal of this little Al Bundy/Married with Children phrase: "You wanna get somethin' cleaner and greener? Wash my underwear!" Those might not be the words that they'd use, but they'd argue that racing cars as far as pollution is a drop in the ocean either way, as far as negative or positive effects, though the ACO and car makers are considering the promotional effects and good publicity. And that is the definite attitude that some fans have, and what the I consider to be half-hearted attempts at "green" racing that NASCAR and F1 have done.

Fact is that if the factory teams don't always get automatic handouts from the sanctioning bodies, I don't think that private teams can expect very many either, as the sanctioning bodies will follow their own interests, and that often means pandering and baiting the factories, rightfully or wrongfully. I don't believe that the ACO will make rules to cripple Audi anymore than they'd make rules to give Toyota too much of a free hand--it's still as much up to Toyota to prove their mettle as it is for Audi to stay ahead and get faster, all of which in within their rights under the rules.

I'm not against private teams getting a bone every now and then, but I don't believe that they need the artificial balance that dominates in other forms of racing. Even in the virtually spec world of NASCAR, there are still haves and have-nots. And as far as the factories go, it's up to them to try and make the best use of the rules that they were given, as to the private teams.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Razgriz8484

Am I the only person who actually agrees with Audi with that latest interview? I do agree that the diesels may be at a disadvantage this year. However, I think Audi will probably sand bag all the way up to Le Mans. But hey Peugeot and any other team would do the same exact thing. It's racing and part of any sport. You don't show your hand till the big show.

that's what i said in Post 2843. dont know if Toyota will do the same