SuperKarts

the man · 28 Nov 2002, 08:27 (Ref:438469)

I was just reading in the lastest kart oz mag where they tested a 125cc honda superkart. They said it was quick and had great speed and braking, but was wondering that which class is more popular the 25cc national or the 125cc gearbox?

Warwick · 29 Nov 2002, 10:02 (Ref:439264)

In NZ the 250 national was always the most popular,as the cost difference between running a 125 and 250 was very small.

Personally I wouldn't bother with either if its not a 250 twin its not a real kart lol

www.ozsuperkart.net

the man · 1 Dec 2002, 11:59 (Ref:440468)

I guess that would be the same in Australia

Warwick · 2 Dec 2002, 06:15 (Ref:440919)

Maybe,in Oz they also run a 80cc class as well,on a 3.5km track a 250 twin is about 4 sec faster than a 250 single, and the 250 single is about the same ahead of a 125.

the man · 7 Dec 2002, 06:48 (Ref:444858)

So what is the difference between a 250 single and a 250 twin?

Warwick · 7 Dec 2002, 19:21 (Ref:445192)

rough guess 20-30hp,250 singles are based on motocross engines normally 57-60hp,twins on either GP bike engines or purpose built kart engines 80-90hp+.

http://users.cyberzane.net/rforker/GTHomepage.htm

the man · 9 Dec 2002, 08:36 (Ref:446142)

Are the 250cc single and the 250cc twin in two different classes?

the man · 9 Dec 2002, 08:43 (Ref:446146)

So what is the leading make of kart in superkart is it zip kart or stockman or niether?

Warwick · 10 Dec 2002, 04:57 (Ref:446748)

250 twin is what every else in the world calls superkarts,
250 single is 250 national seperate class,different weights.

Zip has probably won more races and has more chassis out there as they've been around longer,Stockman is a Australian brand and are meant to be a softer chassis,finish is also not as good,ther are also Anderson, Jade,Msr,P1,Pvp and a few others.

This year at the world Superkart challenge the fastest kart was a P1,it all depends on whose driving it

the man · 13 Dec 2002, 10:14 (Ref:448933)

so if i am a person who likes to get the thing sideways through just about every corner then go for a softer chassis or a harder chassis?

superbird · 14 Dec 2002, 19:13 (Ref:449955)

doesn't matter, you'll be slow in either

Warwick · 15 Dec 2002, 04:00 (Ref:450153)

Yup Superbird is right,you want to waste your time getting sideways you will be SLOW!

you can set up any chassis to slide,but it just burns up tyres and wastes corner speed.

the man · 15 Dec 2002, 10:58 (Ref:450274)

So it is better to be smooth through corners rather than slide the thing everywhere?
Also how long are the races ( 10, 20, 30 or even longer lap races)

Warwick · 16 Dec 2002, 06:03 (Ref:450845)

The classic line is out wide,brake hard in a straight line and turn in late,gassing it up as soon as you are off the brakes,you should be either on the brake or on the gas no in between.

We run about 4-5 races a day of 5 laps (3.5km)longest I have been in was a 30min race on a 4.2km circuit,dunno how many laps we did,I believe in the UK and USA you get less races but longer,not sure about OZ

the man · 16 Dec 2002, 07:50 (Ref:450883)

So there are no 2 hour races or anything over there in New Zealand? I think I have heard of a 2-5 hour race over here in Oz

Warwick · 17 Dec 2002, 05:46 (Ref:451591)

That 1/2hr is the longest race in NZ,I believe they ran a 2 hour in Oz and that is the longest I have heard of.

A 250GP engine does about 500-600 km to a set of pistons and normally has the rings changed at 1/2 that on a normal day we will do about 100km at a meeting over 5 races,now if you are averaging 130-140km an hour how long a race can you do before the engine goes off and the tyres fall apart.

tassuperkart · 22 Dec 2002, 04:20 (Ref:455257)

The 250cc single cylinder "National" (IC/E) class has been declining rapidly in Oz now for the last couple of years. This is largely due to the enormous resurgence of interest in 125 Gearbox and 250 International (F/E) classes as a result of the cheapness and relative ease of aquiring Ex GP bike engines such as RS125 & 250 Hondas, TZ 125 & 250 Yamahas and a plethora of new purpose built F/E engines from various European and U.S. manufacturers.
IC/E engines are being pushed way beyond their original design limits and the amount of money being poured into these pedantic and fragile engines is astronomical to say the least, some would even suggest foolish.The ongoing running costs of these engines is pushing the class into oblivion as more and more people are seeing the benefits of running GP bike engines specifically designed for road racing with attendant high outputs and rpm's coupled with almost bulletproof reliability. The orioginal intent of the IC/E's was to enable a competitor to compete in a really hairy chested variety of kart with relative reliability and affordability compared to the very fast but fragile and costly Rotax 256's and a couple of difficult to operate and unreliable parallel twin TZ Yamahas running about. Unlimited modifications have been allowed to these singles over the years where if they had been kept as a stock and stock appearing category then their future should have been assured.
Expect to see IC/E machines virtually disappear in Oz in the next couple of years.
A good 125cc machine is can produce times competitive with most IC/E's on shorter tracks and can still mix with the IC/E's on longercircuits with a good pilot aboard.
I hope that helps.
E

the man · 22 Dec 2002, 10:07 (Ref:455346)

So not keeping the 250cc singles stock standed has killed the class

tassuperkart · 22 Dec 2002, 23:10 (Ref:455776)

Ummm..... I wouldnt exactly say that that was the main reason but it would be fair to say that having the class unlimited has contributed well to its decline and eventual (I believe) demise.
I think the easy access and affordability of the GP bike engines at present has hit the class the hardest.
Consider this, I run both RS125 & RS250 Hondas. Both are '92 models and are pretty much stock apart from some trick pipes on the 250. You can buy a reasonable RS250 of this year for aroung $2000 to $3000 ready to go. You may be only a couple of horsepower down on the really quick guys but bang for buck you cant go wrong.
Any IC/E engine will usually come at around the $2500 dollar mark if it is any good at all with all the unreliability and brittleness that comes as a matter of course with these moto-x engines being asked to rev well over 10 grand at WOT for the better part of a race.
There is also a gulf of difference between a clunker and a really good single in terms of dollars sunk in for performance out......ridiculous really.
My RS250 has only the addition of really good pipes and in straightline terms gives little away to the very best stuff around. It represents really good "bang for buck"
The same goes for the 125. I run the 125 dead stock with the factory pipe and here in Tassie has little drama keeping up with the best IC/E's we have here except on the longer straight of Symmons Plains. These engines can be had for well less than $1200 ready to go. Try getting 41 horsepower out of a CR125 M-X engine for that cost including the engine to begin with!!
It is a shame about the IC/E's tho. I feel that they do have a place in the scheme of things but need to have compulsory rev limiters fitted to limit the engines to say 8500rpm. This would allow the existing hotted up stuff to continue running with some tweaks to lower the power curve and make it real attractive for a dude to find a clunker old engine and cobble it to a frame and go racing real quick for a whole season without lifting the barrell.
Now that would make the class attractive as an entry level 250 class again yeah?
E

Warwick · 23 Dec 2002, 04:38 (Ref:455936)

Good ideas in that post I run a TZ250 and my running costs aren't much more than the top 250 nationals and unless its a short tight track normally always beat them

We only restrict the 250 singles on carb size,when Paul Hillman raced here in his 125 he qualified 4th in a field of about 10 250 singles.

Coming over for our nationals Tassuperkart?

the man · 23 Dec 2002, 10:25 (Ref:456020)

so the rules shoyld be looked at again to look at the problems and should be fixed. Something like Tassuperkart said about rev limits and stuff like that

yelodwg · 23 Dec 2002, 18:20 (Ref:456285)

Looking at the WSC 2002 List of Participants - http://users.cyberzane.net/rforker/W...rticipants.htm -on the Forker Brothers site, shows 31 F/E drivers and 36 IC/E drivers. This is for the US series and obviously doesn't represent what is happening Down Under

Tom Stephens
www.kartfinder.com

tassuperkart · 24 Dec 2002, 06:45 (Ref:456613)

Yeah Tom, that is a very valid point with IC/E in the U.S.
They still seem to bother with singles. Mebbe bits and goodies for them are better value than for us but I dont have any explaination for why there are so many IC/E's (still) running over there but dying in the arse here. Shame really! Sure are fun to drive!

As I have said b4, in initial purchase and overall running costs the F/E's are a very cost effective choice.
This is particularly true of 125's as this category is easier to handle in all ways to the F/E's and a crapload less intimidating that an F/E in full flight.
Cheap, high horsepower engines that seem to last for ages.
I use an absolute maximum RPM (mostly) of between 12200 to 12400 and I run half a season on one ring/s. I dont even bother lifting the barrel/'s anymore just to check.
I do use a good quality Parilla inline thermostat on the 125 tho, to maintain constant temps and faster warmup.
I have one of those blasted Golf radiators on the F/E and it is not good enough for the job so I dont bother with thermostats on the 250 (yet).

Speaking of rules, I am the tasmanian delegate to the Cams national Superkart Council and I have been an advocate of changes to the IC/E class for many years but it always seems to fall on very deaf ears.
I dont think that carby restrictions are really that successful as a good tuner can always get the revs out of an engine pretty much irrespective of the size of the carby and the ridiculous revs these things are asked to run at in order to produce good power is what mostly kills them.

My proposal of a generic rev limiter for IC/E would still allow a guy to run his million dollar hand grenade special with all the percentage balanced cranks, trick one off close ratio gearboxes and always well over 10,000 rpms with a piston life of perhaps 2 meetings iffen your brave with little more mods than adding a couple of centimeters to the pipe belly section or headpipe. At about 8500 the thing would last a full season on a single ring!
Now how hard is that?
"No! never! would never in a million years limit my engine blah blah blah",,,, that still rings in my ears after many years and the class slowly implodes into oblivion as we speak, dragged down by spiralling tuning costs and ever increasing unreliability! Bah!!!!

I never thought of running in N.Z. tho Wawrick!
Wouldnt that be cool! I get eaten alive here and then I would get eaten alive over there by Steve and Wayne (Crossland) and god knows who else! hahahaha
I might head over that way some time tho, you never know! Got a spare 125????? LOLOL
Hillman is a very, verrryyy good 125 builder and steerer and he would not have too much trouble dealing like that most 250 single runners. It appears that he seems to like to add jungle juice to his fuels tho hahahaha.
Havent heard of him racing in a while now tho.

L8tr guys
E

Warwick · 24 Dec 2002, 09:01 (Ref:456645)

Hillman won the 125 national class here then (Suprise) he got DQed for illegal fuel.

As far as I am aware the Crosslands haven't raced here for quite some time,not at the last four nationals anyway,last year Steve didn't even know what date they were on even though he was playing in the band in the same city.

Anton Stevens normally does and he runs about 3 sec a lap quicker than me on a 3.5km circuit,last year after killing his Rotax twice he drove my TZ in the GP and put it off the track after 5 laps.

Brian Stockman is meant to be coming this year with his kart converted to methanol (as allowed by our rules)unfortunately I will miss all this,as our sidecar nationals are the same weekend,if my 250 wasn't in pieces you could have run that.

woodyracing · 24 Dec 2002, 13:57 (Ref:456792)

how heavy is a complete 250 twin superkart ?
and anyone know the 0-60mph time ?

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