Seat Belt Lifing

[356sc]

Originally Posted by Paul D

And I still don't see how they differentiate between covering their arses when it comes to, say, a belt, but not a ball joint? The obvious answer, perhaps, is they can check a belt easily, but not a ball joint - but if that's the real reason, then that just makes it even barmier in my book!

Completely agree Paul!!

So we are in agreement that the loonies are running the asylum, the rules are being made to legislate for the minority, and no-one seems to benefit from the current ruling that makes our safety equipment obsolete after 5 years......

So try this as an alternative (vainly trying to ignore the legal implications).....what if there was no lifeing of equipment or scrutineering for that matter...would that actually change anything?

You and I would probably be wearing the same level/currency of safety gear and our car would be prepared to the same level....as someone who preps my own car, I am not doing it just to pass scrutineering!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Still doesn't make it right though, in my opinion, and it's one of those things that just p*sses me off - so I hope you can all excuse the venting of my spleen on here over it! And I still don't see how they differentiate between covering their arses when it comes to, say, a belt, but not a ball joint? The obvious answer, perhaps, is they can check a belt easily, but not a ball joint - but if that's the real reason, then that just makes it even barmier in my book! That's just like saying "OK, we can check that stuff easy enough, so we'll life that, and just turn a blind eye to the fact that the car could be about to fall apart mechanically."

You know what they call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start!

I think Paul has hit the nail on the head, careful though Paul, nails have feelings you know!

With all the third world replacement parts flooding the first world markets in original looking packaging, I know that a death or serious injury MUST have occurred by now and will continue to occur so long as suppliers are roped in by the bottom line instead of applying a little QA/QC to protect their customers

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by 356sc

Completely agree Paul!!

So we are in agreement that the loonies are running the asylum, ...............

...............You and I would probably be wearing the same level/currency of safety gear and our car would be prepared to the same level....as someone who preps my own car, I am not doing it just to pass scrutineering!

I am afraid that the last paragraph is where I completely disagree. I was in my late teens when I built the first car for the track, and being invincible as I said previously, I would not have installed the roll-cage, harness or the fire extinguisher if I hadn't had to. In fact, my car failed it's first scrutineering at it's first race because we had not placed the battery in a container in the boot, which because the fuel tank was also there, was a requirement.

None of these safety elements had any relevance to me at that age; I drove like a loony on the roads, and my company road car didn't have a roll-over bar or any seat belts, and I didn't have to wear a helmet. A simple fact is that there was probably a greater possibility of my having a serious accident on the roads where I chose not to have any safety equipment, than on the tracks where it was mandated that I had to have these items.

The fact is that when I started racing, the then girlfriend of a friend of mine who used to race a clubmans car became almost a talisman to me. We invariably raced at the same circuits on the same days, so she was always around. And apart from always making sure that the car was always gleaming, she also made it her duty to go round the car to make sure that everything was done that needed to be done, like making sure that the boot was secured properly, the bonnet pins were in correctly, doors closed and that my seat belts were being worn correctly. These were things that were of no significance to us mere mortals, but they were to her. And, on one of the very rare occasions that she did not carry out her duties, we failed to secure the fibre glass bonnet, which promptly became detached on my first lap of practice. Boy, did she give me a dressing down for that alter in the day

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I am afraid that the last paragraph is where I completely disagree. I was in my late teens when I built the first car for the track, and being invincible as I said previously, I would not have installed the roll-cage, harness or the fire extinguisher if I hadn't had to. In fact, my car failed it's first scrutineering at it's first race because we had not placed the battery in a container in the boot, which because the fuel tank was also there, was a requirement.

None of these safety elements had any relevance to me at that age; I drove like a loony on the roads, and my company road car didn't have a roll-over bar or any seat belts, and I didn't have to wear a helmet. A simple fact is that there was probably a greater possibility of my having a serious accident on the roads where I chose not to have any safety equipment, than on the tracks where it was mandated that I had to have these items.

The fact is that when I started racing, the then girlfriend of a friend of mine who used to race a clubmans car became almost a talisman to me. We invariably raced at the same circuits on the same days, so she was always around. And apart from always making sure that the car was always gleaming, she also made it her duty to go round the car to make sure that everything was done that needed to be done, like making sure that the boot was secured properly, the bonnet pins were in correctly, doors closed and that my seat belts were being worn correctly. These were things that were of no significance to us mere mortals, but they were to her. And, on one of the very rare occasions that she did not carry out her duties, we failed to secure the fibre glass bonnet, which promptly became detached on my first lap of practice. Boy, did she give me a dressing down for that alter in the day

Thats not quite the same as what Paul is saying. Using your analogy you have to have in date belts - yes and seats - yes but who checks on the grid to see if they are bolted in correctly. Ok they are checked at scrutineering but who's to say you havn't had to remove them for access etc prior to going on track, unlikely I know but..............

[GORDON STREETER]

One thing I will mention that amazed me at the time happened at a meeting after I had the car scrutineer'd.
I got in the car to go out for qualifying and clipped the harness up and lent forward (as I always do) only to find that the rear belts weren't fitted to the eyes !
OK I had disconnected them the day before having a "de dust" and didn't clip them back on, however this had just passed scrutineering and wasn't noticed !
In this case it wouldn't have mattered how old they were !
Regarding rubbish parts being fitted the srutineering is only for the safety of the driver and obviously they can't see or know what quality things are made out off, I remember a propshaft falling off of a car in the tunnel going out for qualifiying at Brands (NOT MINE) !!!!
I have been around racing since 1969 and seen just about everything that can and does go wrong, but I have never seen a belt or a seat actually break but have seen the fittings pulling out of rusty cars including a seat that had been fitted with rivnuts ! seats are normally "broken" because of serious side impacts.
I don't know if the same rules on belts apply to banger racing that get swapped from car to car throughout the years and are open to all weathers with most kept outside all the time !
it would be interesting to find out if the actual fabric or stitching of them has ever been known to break in these type of events as they are in constant impacts with each other, OK maybe a slower speed but whose going to argue on that point !

[356sc]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I am afraid that the last paragraph is where I completely disagree. I was in my late teens when I built the first car for the track, and being invincible as I said previously, I would not have installed the roll-cage, harness or the fire extinguisher if I hadn't had to.

Unluckily for me I was a relative late comer to racing, so I spent my "indestructible" phase on past times where it was less of an in issue!!

[midgetman]

Just to cheer all you grumpy old beggars up, I've just been reading in Racetech magazine about the new Lifeline extinguisher system. It's the first one to pass the "tough new FIA 8865 standard that comes into force next year."

New extinguishers anyone?

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by midgetman

New extinguishers anyone?

F*** off!!!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by midgetman

New extinguishers anyone?

Do they work? At the moment we're carrying a 4 litre dead weight of soapy water. If the new ones are actually capable of doing something about a fire rather than just getting your feet wet then I'm all for it.

[midgetman]

The blurb in Racetech was quite impressive, but I'm no extinguisher expert so can't see past PR puff.

[apriliadriver]

Originally Posted by Paul D

F*** off!!!

Lifeline, Coventry, just rang about a 4-litre extinguisher I sent them for re-lifing.

Apparently, the pressure vessel has exceeded its ten-year lifespan, and I need a new extinguisher bottle.

Well ... that's the first time I have come across an absolute time-limit on a race extinguisher....
Nick

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by apriliadriver

Lifeline, Coventry, just rang about a 4-litre extinguisher I sent them for re-lifing.

Apparently, the pressure vessel has exceeded its ten-year lifespan, and I need a new extinguisher bottle.

Well ... that's the first time I have come across an absolute time-limit on a race extinguisher....
Nick

I mentioned this in a post while back. Lifeline usually give a discount on replacement, FWIW.....

Not sure if applies to alloy as well as steel bottles, and whether it is industry wide policy, though!

[GORDON STREETER]

Dive bottles have a 5 year life span and then should have a hydro/visual pressure test to have them re-certified, a similar test on extinguisher bottles could be used if it was cost effective.

[apriliadriver]

Woops ! sorry, Mike - I thought I'd read every post in this thread. Must have nodded off somewhere. Now where did I leave my false teeth .....
Nick

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by apriliadriver

Woops ! sorry, Mike - I thought I'd read every post in this thread. Must have nodded off somewhere. Now where did I leave my false teeth .....
Nick

Well, it was a very casual mention, and wouldn't blame you for nodding off.......

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by apriliadriver

Lifeline, Coventry, just rang about a 4-litre extinguisher I sent them for re-lifing.

Apparently, the pressure vessel has exceeded its ten-year lifespan, and I need a new extinguisher bottle.

Well ... that's the first time I have come across an absolute time-limit on a race extinguisher....
Nick

Ah, the Lifeline 'you need a new one sir' line. 'But we will give you a discount when you return the bottle so we can re-use it'. Funny how it does not apply with other manufacturers.

Or are they just using Chinese bottles instead of the German ones?

[Heightswitch]

I get mine serviced at a local fire extinguisher specialist for about £20. The price goes up if we are on a cycle of renewal of the extinguishant !! Is that how you spell it…

I generally watch and have a natter with the servicing fella as he does it..

Pretty simple really, As for life-ing the actual bottle??? They generally look pretty shiny internally, the replacement of the rubber sealing o ring is pennies and the fun part is watching him scratch his head when working out the mix of foam / water because it is a smaller extinguisher than he is normally used to servicing…

I think the problem with the world these days is the general lack of people who understand how things work and are easily able to have the wool pulled over their eyes when the master science of engineering is used..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vHhgh6oM0

Seatbelt lifeing….Well. its pretty easy to cut labels off belts of cars involved in a heavy shunt..Its pretty easy to spot damaged and stretched webbing!! Its pretty easy for a scrutineer to decide they won't accept the use of a belt whether in date or not..They point out other things of a subjective nature every time a car is scrutineered…Absolutely no need to life belts as long as everyone has the correct level of respect for a scrutineers opinion. A belt should have a supply date and then it can be assessed at every event!!

N.

[delta]

Been debating about posting these pictures.They are a bit grusome but they do show how much seat belts stretch in a heafty old shunt.
This was Mallory around twenty years ago and then with narrow belts. I had clipped a back marker coming out of the Esses and then barroll rolled into the armco hitting my head and getting knocked out. Appart from some cracked ribs and thankfully wearing a very very good Shoei crash helmet I am still here today.You can see how much the belts stretched in the shunt as in picture two my shoulders are way past the front chassis tube. BTW the red Delta in last picture we had out on hire. His wife never allowed him to race again.And yes please Tim or Gordon can you flip pictures round.

[GORDON STREETER]

OK

[Heightswitch]

The belts are the same length..You just shortened the car thats all
Pretty sobering pics.
N.

[zefarelly]

I remember chatting to John Penfold after he had a shunt in HRSR, his helmet had a mark, got sent away for testing, the scuff on the cage was on the passenger side top of main hoop, near the door!

[Podd37]

I've read through this whole thread (quiet day!) and must say that over here in Ireland, the rules are more relaxed, with various extensions on belt and seat lifing dates. Which really makes a bit of a mockery of the whole idea. Either they are 'dangerous ' after a period or they are not! What's even crazier is that I can race in the south but if I go to kirkistown in Northern Ireland, I have to replace the seat and belts. Apparently the 60 mile drive makes my belts more dangerous!
My own feeling is that national authorities have been too keen on doing whatever the FIA dictate without looking at the details. I would love to see a study of the number of people on a given month that are competing in FIA sanctioned events and non FIA (track days, bangers etc) and then correlate the number of accidents in each, then the injuries. There are i will wager, far more doing track days in a month than racing, they have plenty of shunts in cars with no cages, belts, fancy seats, Hans devices (don't start me!) etc and are they getting killed and injured by the score?
I fear that health and safety go into Motorsport and is being used as a handy cash in excuse. I appreciate that Max might not make much form his selling of the stuff but the manufacturers sure as hell are doing very nicely.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I don't know if the same rules on belts apply to banger racing that get swapped from car to car throughout the years and are open to all weathers with most kept outside all the time !
it would be interesting to find out if the actual fabric or stitching of them has ever been known to break in these type of events as they are in constant impacts with each other, OK maybe a slower speed but whose going to argue on that point !

Agreed,that's was my take on it was as well !!

[BertMk2]

It was pointed out to me by a scrutineer at the weekend that my crash helmet can't be used as of next year - so that's another perfectly good bit of kit I need to replace

[midgetman]

Oh, err, sorry to see that you're suffering from MSA Syndrome. Still, to run out the end of this year it must be BSI Type A/FR and that's well old.