Rule 94 Re: Engines In Modified Production

[Copperbottom]

Rule 94 for modified production states:" The engine block must be externally identifiable as that fitted to the original model or specified option and must remain in the same capacity class as the original car,or the manufacturers specified option for the model and engine.Modifications to all components is permitted."
If I read this correctly it means that engine blocks that weren't originally fitted to the model range are not allowed,so does it mean that mk1 and2 escorts can't use the later 205/200 blocked pinto/cosworth engine,astra mk1s can't use 2.0 engines of any type (8v/16v),peugeot 205/309s can't use mi16 engines,visas can't use 1905cc engines (8v/16v) etc, etc. All of these have different casting numbers to the original so are therefore NOT externally identifiable as being original.
If for example a Corsa had an X16xe block as standard you couldn't use an Z16xe in it's place (different block numbers).

[blackx]

I think if you change to blocks to ones that wern't originally fitted or offered as options then you move to Sports Libre

[b1ackcr0w]

I think you've got it. In the example of the Peugeot, you could only use the Mi16 engine in what was originally an Mi16.

[Steve Wilkinson]

You are correct in the assumption that fitting say a 2 litre Duratec into a Mk 1 Escort would not be allowed in Mod Prod and as BlackX says such a car would have to go into Sports Libre. However there are ramifications of such "class changes" for example where cars built to Mod Prod rules are then shifted to Sports Libre where they fail to meet the Technical Regs for that class.

[DaveK]

Richard Marshalls 205 ran a 16v engine in his 205, as do several of the current 205 running on the hills.

Dave

[Copperbottom]

Originally Posted by DaveK

Richard Marshalls 205 ran a 16v engine in his 205, as do several of the current 205 running on the hills.

Dave

Perhaps not legally! The point is: MI 16 blocks have different part numbers to 1.9 gti 8v blocks so therefore are not identifiable as being original to the car. The same goes for sierra pinto (205 casting) engines being fitted to mk1 and 2 escorts and so on.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Copperbottom

Perhaps not legally! The point is: MI 16 blocks have different part numbers to 1.9 gti 8v blocks so therefore are not identifiable as being original to the car. The same goes for sierra pinto (205 casting) engines being fitted to mk1 and 2 escorts and so on.

Can you retain the original block in a 205 1.9 GTi and replace the cylinder head with that off a MI 16?

After all cylinder heads are free. Well not to buy obviously that would be silly! Well it wouldn't be silly it just wouldn't happen would it?

[CNHSS1]

having read and re-read the rule over recent years, my take on it is that if the car came with a crossflow then it should have a crossflow block, irrespective of which year that block came from, but shoudlnt have a more modern 16v engine or a pinto for instance. ive always assumed (and prepared to be wrong here...) that the rule was to allow some lattitude where the cars original engine may have long since expired and a replacement fitted, but not allow the 'wrong' engines to be fitted.
as for externally identifiable blocks, i again interpret that as the same 'family' of engines ie any pinto, but not a zetec etc.
to be fair how many people even know where the engine no's are on each make/model of block?? and how many can be seen when fitted in the confines of an engine bay?

as for 16v heads in modprod, so long as 8v and 16v blocks are externally identical, then i can see no issue.

[DaveK]

I have seen a very nice conversion that uses BMW 16v motorcycle cyl heads onto an A-series block, not exactly original but still allowed.

Dave

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by DaveK

I have seen a very nice conversion that uses BMW 16v motorcycle cyl heads onto an A-series block, not exactly original but still allowed.

Dave

Which seems to back up my question about the MI 16 cylnder head.

With respect to the conversion that DaveK mentions; the Deppers will be at Llandow this Saturday and I am planning to take a couple of photos, talk to Dave & Martin and put a small piece into Motorsport News as I think that it is a typical example of speed eventer's ingenuity.

[smckeown]

Originally Posted by Copperbottom

Perhaps not legally! The point is: MI 16 blocks have different part numbers to 1.9 gti 8v blocks so therefore are not identifiable as being original to the car. The same goes for sierra pinto (205 casting) engines being fitted to mk1 and 2 escorts and so on.

As a fellow pug 205 driver just about to enter sprinting i've looked into this area lots.

I agree with Copperbottom above in terms of my interpretation of the rules, but the rules are not upheld it seems by the scrutineers

So do you goto the trouble of sticking with the rules and changing all the internals to get you the nice goodies in the mi16 block, or save a lot of time and hassle and run the 16v block.

Sean

[Kwikescortmk1]

Originally Posted by smckeown

As a fellow pug 205 driver just about to enter sprinting i've looked into this area lots.

I agree with Copperbottom above in terms of my interpretation of the rules, but the rules are not upheld it seems by the scrutineers

So do you goto the trouble of sticking with the rules and changing all the internals to get you the nice goodies in the mi16 block, or save a lot of time and hassle and run the 16v block.

Sean

I've been watching this thread since it started and tbh I'd make sure that your car is 100% legal,IF you went well and started winning you'd probably get another (slower) competitor complain and you could end up being thrown out on said technicality!
I know because it happened to me on suspension issues!

[smckeown]

yes that's what other people have said in the past, specifically it's probably ok until you start winning.

My car is within the regs, but that doesnt mean I expect to ever be near the front haha

[Copperbottom]

I was really hoping for clarification from one of the scrutineers,who can I ask?

[blackx]

Originally Posted by Copperbottom

I was really hoping for clarification from one of the scrutineers,who can I ask?

There should be a list of scrutineers in the blue book shouldn't there

[smckeown]

You can phone the FIA to clarify. I phoned and asked for the technical department onnce..no one answered. I must have chosen a bad time.

[Kwikescortmk1]

Originally Posted by smckeown

You can phone the FIA to clarify. I phoned and asked for the technical department onnce..no one answered. I must have chosen a bad time.

I wouldn't bother!! I did that when I first built my car 5 year ago,I was told that the rear suspension that I wanted to use would be within the rules for modified production,I now get moved into sports libre!! Which really sucks as it seems that it's only escorts that they're bothered about....I've seen several competitors with different models that get away with it (a beam axled coil-overed mini is one example). My car now just sits in the garage as I won't pay entry fees to be put into a class where I wont be competitive . It's best to get it in writing IF you do contact the MSA.

[Bunman]

Oh the old ones are always the best
I run Mod prod and have done for many years and I can say I have seen some ingenious enterpretations of the MSA regs.
Trouble is the MSA will not commit to any decision making whatsoever when it comes to either Production or Modified production classes at Speed events.
Heavily modified 650+hp Nissan Skyline in the production class with no safety equipment????
According to the MSA that was fine (And I saw the letter)
Mod prod blocks as someone correctly pointed out earlier have to have been available in the host vehicle at some point. Or a manufacturers specified option. i.e an exchange unit etc. 205 blocks for example are ok for an Escort as they were what you would get if you went into Ford for a re-con or exchange engine in mid-late 80's
As were AX crossflow blocks etc.
Im pretty sure the MI16 cylinder head fits the 1.9 205 block,(with a few mods) which to the regs would be allowed.

[Kwikescortmk1]

Ok then,what's your view on the suspension rules? One rule says that springs are free,another rule says that additional links are allowed,and a third rule says you cant do either . My escort is 5 linked with coil-overs on the rear,I've run like this for the 5 years that I've been back in the sport,this year they've (the powers that be)decided that it's not legal for modprod!! last time out there was an AH sprite that was semi spaceframed (front and rear) with the same rear suspension set up as my car and the scruts didn't seem to think that was a problem but just went on about the lack of leaf springs on my car,funnily enough there was also a mi16 engined 205 in modprods too. I've seen several minis that run in modprod with beam axles,no rubber cones and coil over shocks front and rear.The rules either need to be changed or at least clarified.

[fiestajohn]

Did I hear that the engine rule in mod prod might be getting changed, or is that just my wishful thinking?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by fiestajohn

Did I hear that the engine rule in mod prod might be getting changed, or is that just my wishful thinking?

There is a wholesale review underway of the regulations governing Speed Events. One of the major injustices in my view is when someone replaces a blown engine with what is now available at a reasonable price - e.g. he can't afford a BDA so slots in something equivalent but none standard - and then gets shuffled into the Sports Libre catch-all.

The new regulations governing Mod Prod may not be in place for 2009 but should be for 2010. How this ends up is anyones guess but hopefully common sense will prevail.

[Slow]

What you can change appears to be clear if the Bluebook is followed, but sometimes application of the regs can seem variable...

So, what about plastic windscreens in Mod Prod saloons then ?

The Blue book mentions replacing side and rear windows with plastic but does not mention the windscreen.

[dlr]

Re: “visas can't use 1905cc engines (8v/16v) etc” why not exactly. Firstly the head is free in modprod so you can fit which ever one you want. Secondly capacity is free in modprod as long as you stay in the same capacity class as the original car. The original capacity was 1580cc therefore one would be in the 1401-2000cc class so a Visa could enter as 1401cc or 2000cc or anywhere between. Of course you do realise that the only difference between a 1580cc and 1905cc PSA XU engine is the stroke anyway, bore is 83mm then 73 or 88mm stroke for the 1580 and 1905 respectively but again this is irrelevant as you could enter a 1401cc “205 GTi” or a 2000cc or one anywhere between as capacity is free within the class and irrelevant again as you can do what you want to the internals of the block, bore it out as you wish etc as clearly stated in the Blue Book. You can make an XU up to about 2.3 litre if you want to stroke it long enough with a diesel crank but then that would still be smaller capacity than most 205 block Escorts which are running 2.4 in the 2 litre class

[FBF25T]

Doclands Light Railway is 100% correct on blocks and capacity.

The reason an Escort can't run 5 link rear is not because of the extra links, but because the floorpan is modified. Tecnically the 205 pinto block is externally different, but any one who goes the protest route on that needs a ''quiet word''

As to space frame cars and beam axles, no that is not legit, a word with the scrutineer should get it looked at.

And my Sunbeam, which is on the cover of the sprint section is also legal!!

[FBF25T]

Originally Posted by Slow

What you can change appears to be clear if the Bluebook is followed, but sometimes application of the regs can seem variable...

So, what about plastic windscreens in Mod Prod saloons then ?

The Blue book mentions replacing side and rear windows with plastic but does not mention the windscreen.

I thought it was clear ''side windows and rear windows can be changed'' i.e. not the windscreen.

A slight problem is that the scrutineers aren't really eligibility scrutineers, only in practice safety. It would be unfair for them to know every car/engine/suspension system intimately.