The seat next to Michael's

Gerard · 27 Jun 2001, 20:38 (Ref:110438)

Several drivers have been approached by the Ferrari team in the past, but all declined the offer, as they did not want to partner Michael Schumacher.

This included David Coulthard, Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya.

In an interview with 'The Sun', Michael Schumacher said: 'I don't know why certain drivers have not come to Ferrari. There was talk of Coulthard coming in 1997 but he wasn't happy to do that as long as I was there. Villeneuve would also never come as long as I was there. So is it me, or is it just the others who don't want to come?'

Usually, the fastest driver in a team is the number 1.
What do you think, are those drivers afraid they might not be as fast as Michael Schumacher and therefore will be automatically relegated to the number 2 status, does Michael Schumacher have a say in who's going to be his team partner or are there other reasons?

JeremySmith · 27 Jun 2001, 21:01 (Ref:110450)

I think there are a few reasons for this..

Some of the other drivers don't consider themselves as fast or as capable of the results that Michael gets on a consistent basis..Do you recall Eddie Irvine at Ferrari, he basically said he was not as quick as Michael.. Rubens believes that he is, but he is not..

Then there are the drivers who feel that Ferrari is all about Michael and they will not get a look in..Now playing devils advocate here for a second, I wonder how many drivers Ferrari have even bothered to speak too.

IMO Kimi Raikkonen would have no problem partnering Michael...He is fast,quite and confident.. Michael has a lot of respect for him already and knows Kimi has the stuff to be a WDC..

Airhead · 27 Jun 2001, 22:17 (Ref:110483)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jersound
I think there are a few reasons for this..

Then there are the drivers who feel that Ferrari is all about Michael and they will not get a look in..Now playing devils advocate here for a second, I wonder how many drivers Ferrari have even bothered to speak too.

IMO Kimi Raikkonen would have no problem partnering Michael...He is fast,quite and confident.. Michael has a lot of respect for him already and knows Kimi has the stuff to be a WDC..

Certainly TGW is fast and consistent. As Jersound has said he has the attention of the whole team to ensure he stays that way. I don't believe that this is the situation to place a young driver without any 'political' experience. It would be a career ruiner. I think Rubens will stay in the hope that TGW will retire and he can inheret the team. On this I believe he sound not hold his breath.

JeremySmith · 27 Jun 2001, 22:33 (Ref:110491)

TGW??? What does that mean..Or do you not have the balls to write it in longhand!

Airhead · 27 Jun 2001, 22:36 (Ref:110498)

It was something to do with balls, but a bit further north. The German ****er can be written in long hand but the auto thingy eats it.

JeremySmith · 27 Jun 2001, 22:50 (Ref:110505)

I see you mean That German ****%r?

Wrex · 27 Jun 2001, 23:10 (Ref:110512)

Gerard, it's my opinion (and I'm sure their will be many that oppose it), that deep down they know Michael is better than them. Eddie knew it, deep down, Rubino knows it.

On the other hand, If they trully believed thay were better (and as F1 drivers they have too), they don't feel the need have to prove themselves all over again. It would be difficult to establish yourself in a team built around Michael.

The conspiracy theorists wold have you believe, that Michael controls the team. What rubbish! If there is one team that is about "the team", its ferrari. Michael is a tool to help them achieve the goal of WDC & WCC. If they believed another driver was better, Michael would be out in a second. Are they only keeping him because he is cheap?

Airhead · 27 Jun 2001, 23:24 (Ref:110518)

Quote:

Originally posted by Wrex

Michael is a tool.....

Well you can't argue with that can you.

Valve Bounce · 28 Jun 2001, 00:05 (Ref:110538)

Quote:

Originally posted by Gerard
Several drivers have been approached by the Ferrari team in the past, but all declined the offer, as they did not want to partner Michael Schumacher.

This included David Coulthard, Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya.

In an interview with 'The Sun', Michael Schumacher said: 'I don't know why certain drivers have not come to Ferrari. There was talk of Coulthard coming in 1997 but he wasn't happy to do that as long as I was there. Villeneuve would also never come as long as I was there. So is it me, or is it just the others who don't want to come?'

Usually, the fastest driver in a team is the number 1.
What do you think, are those drivers afraid they might not be as fast as Michael Schumacher and therefore will be automatically relegated to the number 2 status, does Michael Schumacher have a say in who's going to be his team partner or are there other reasons?

Gerard, you are resurrecting Liz's thead "why won't the other kids play with me". I think we discussed this subject in great detail there, and the only guy who has not really said "NO!" is Jos, who is a friend of TGF. Maybe you could add all these posts onto Liz's original thread.

Liz · 28 Jun 2001, 00:11 (Ref:110541)

Anyone who thinks a pilot can't control a team has already forgotten Senna.

And anyone who thinks a pilot who controls a team can't ruin the career of a young, politically innocent, otherwise very good, fast and promising pilot, has forgotten Zonta.

Rubens is still at Ferrari because nobody else would take the job, and he has decided to sell his self-respect for a mess of pottage. The more fool him and some day he will admit it.

Substitute "Senna" for "TGF" in these arguments and you will realise that it's already happened and it's happening again...and there's nothing to do but wait until that German fellow retires.

Wrex · 28 Jun 2001, 00:25 (Ref:110549)

But thats the point Liz, Michael is the best driver today, as was Senna before him. I can't think of a team dominated and controlled by an driver that was'nt the best, and if there was, how stupid was the team?

As to whether it is right or wrong to do this, thats a different question entirely. But it is reality if we like it or not.

senna12 · 28 Jun 2001, 00:54 (Ref:110556)

And that reality is what will keep the other veteran drivers from joining Michael.It wouldn't matter if they were occasionally quicker, often quicker, or always on Michael's pace, he has the edge with the team. I mean, Rubens is no piker, and he's taken a psychological beating as Michaels teammate, so it would be that way for whoever sat beside him. Besides, if the vets want to win races and championships, it's not going to happen as a teammate to MS. They all know this,(and we do too!), so it's gonna be up to Kimi, Fernando, or another young hotshot like Pizzonia (just an example!).

EERO · 28 Jun 2001, 01:38 (Ref:110566)

Quote:

Originally posted by senna12
...Rubens is no piker, and he's taken a psychological beating as Michaels teammate, so it would be that way for whoever sat beside him. Besides, if the vets want to win races and championships, it's not going to happen as a teammate to MS. They all know this,(and we do too!), so it's gonna be up to Kimi, Fernando, or another young hotshot like Pizzonia (just an example!).

The sad thing is that Barrichello went to Ferrari looking for the ultimate measure against which to gauge himself, believing that he had the pace. The harsh reality is that within the context of the team in its current configuration, he is already at a deficit and he ha no way to be sure of his relative pace. Is he substantially slower, or is he being denied the best information and equipment?

Several people have suggested here that talented youngster such as Pizzonia, Raikkonen ofr Alonso would be wasted and ruined by the experience being TGF's teammate. I instead believe that Senna12 is correct and that youth would be patient and grow into the role, learning at the Master's knee until his eventual retirement.

Wrex · 28 Jun 2001, 01:52 (Ref:110570)

As did Michael with Senna before him.

Does anyone believe that the No.2 Ferrari is second rate. Would a team like Ferrari, McLaren or Williams only build one 'good' car and an average one?

I have no doubts the car is built to Michaels liking, because he is the faster of the two, and has the best chance of a championship win. I would assume the same at Mclaren with Mika.

But any top teams goals are to have the two fastest cars on the track, so if car 1 fails, car two wins.

Reality check, Rubino is just not that fast. It must be incredibly difficult to admit this for a F1 driver, as I'm sure all of them believe that if they had the same car as Michael they would be the best. It's not until you race next to him you find out, your not. Sad, but true.

EERO · 28 Jun 2001, 02:12 (Ref:110573)

Wrex, fundamentally I agree with your comments, however a caveat might be Johnnie Herbert's experience as Schumacher's teamate at Benetton in the first few races of 1995. Data was on this ocaission, deliberately withheld.

JeremySmith · 28 Jun 2001, 04:26 (Ref:110599)

It must be hard..Any teammate who is not able to keep up with Michael's pace must take a psychological beating each time they get their car....And Wrex I do not believe for one moment that each Ferrari they build is not identical to the next..Same at Mclaren the cars are the same..The driver is not!

Gt_R · 28 Jun 2001, 05:35 (Ref:110603)

i agree..Ferrari, like Mclaren, has all the sense in the world to build two cars equally competitive to maximise their chance of competition. Lets say Rubens really have to play 2nd fiddle to MS, i am sure Ferrari would give him the best car possible to do that job well. But even now that he is given the same equipment, hardly is Rubens keeping up with MS. And the gap would only widen even further, because now that we have Ralf in a faster car pushing Michael, he would up his game even more.

Teams that i can recall NOT providing drivers equal equipment is Benetton this and last year. In Europe, Giancarlos got a car with all the new developement bits...and see how much more the gap widens to Button.

And yes, maybe last year's car is better suited to Michael then Rubens..afterall, Ferrari knows Michael's driving style very well and could take that into account with creating the car. But this year, Rubens did most of the developement driving during winter testing and that Michael only drove the new car almost when the new season starts... due to his operation. Both drivers have a car as good for them as each other...but Michael can do better with what he has than Rubens. All the bull-**** of team-favoritism and MS being the mean devil of all... If you are a team owner...please tell me you actually favor your poorer driver and give him all the benefits of the team first! Ferrari favours Michael, Mclaren favours Mika, BMW(berger, head, and a little from williams) prefers Ralf now...the top teams favour their drivers... BAR favours JV to Zonta...the midfield shows favoritism. Benetton favours Giancarlos and Minardi favours Alonso. From the front to the back of the grid...there is favouritism. But michael and Ferrari comes under the fire simply because they are straight about the fact that "HEY...we prefer MS to Rubens...we'd do all we can to let him win" ...but while they do all they can to support Michael, they did not treat Rubens badly...they gave him the car...they gave him the technical support...and they encourage him and stand by him when he is down....i think that they managed things better than BAR and Benetton...and no worse than how BMW treats JPM and Mclaren treat DC.

As for why other top drivers would not go to Ferrari? You seriously think DC can on a constant basis beat MS in equal equipment? I personally think that even JV would have problems beating MS consistently. Maybe 4 out of 10...but not more. Ferrari do not pay MS peanuts, and i do not thing that they would pay MS that much if they believe some cheap drivers can easily do better. So DC would just happily say that "WITH SCHUMACHER INSIDE...i wouldnt go to Ferrari..."...Sadly for DC, i doubt Ferrari wants DC as their top choice if they do not have MS.

By the way, if you think that MS is gifted the opportunity to be the centre of attraction in Ferrari, think again.
He went into Ferrari as a world champion, clearly knowing that Ferrari had performed poorly for almost 2 decades. But he saw the potential with the team, its facilities, finance and came to the team. He adviced the team to hire his bunch of good friends which really glue together. F1 is not about one person. Its your team too. And MS not only can get his team personnels to rally about him, he knows how to keep them motivated. Rarely do you see Ferrari mechanics lose motivation with Schuey around. And now what we see is that with the new management structure, which MS plays a part of, is getting stronger and stronger. If MS is really such a dislike-ful person, you think the Italians would even bother to make his car?

The way Ferrari and MS handles things might not please everybody. But they do not have to please anyone. What they do is what they believe to be the best in their interest, their chances to the WDC and WCC and what is best for the tifosi... If you do not like MS, if you do not like Ferrari...its okay...they couldnt be bothered less. Because take it or leave it...at the end of the days...they are the winners...not us...

senna12 · 28 Jun 2001, 05:43 (Ref:110605)

Rubens at least has the good fortune to drive for Ferrari. The car is so good, that he can afford to be 3 or 4 tenths slower than Michael, yet be able to pick up the pieces when MS fails. One of the top drivers could steal a championship this way ( I'm not sure that Rubens could), but that's the only way it would happen.
One of the younger stars, however, would jump at the chance to drive the best car on the grid and pick up those pieces, with a chance to learn from the best current driver, win some races he otherwise wouldn't, build a positive media impression, and hopefully, if he approves of you, take over in some 4 years.

mac · 28 Jun 2001, 07:01 (Ref:110622)

GT-R - teams who aren't necessarily fighting for wins, and where that team believes there is one stronger driver, quite often have different cars racing at a single weekend. I remember in '99 Williams gave Ralf all of their upgrades a long time before Zanardi got them. It's called development, I believe.

And by the way, I didn't see the gap between Fisi and Jenson widen. It's always been around four seconds.

albert park · 28 Jun 2001, 07:14 (Ref:110625)

all drivers start equal at the start of the year, but MS always has the upper hand very early on. Barrichello needs to stop making excuses about why he doesn't win every race. According to him, he should be closing in on prost's record if only he had a bit of luck!!! Irvine was the only driver willing to accept that he was not in MS' class, the others have to keep telling us and themselves but are always embarrassed by the end of the year.
If it wasn't for MS 1997 & 1998 would have been a boring championship.

RussianFriend · 28 Jun 2001, 07:29 (Ref:110629)

Quote:

Originally posted by Gt_R
i agree..Ferrari, like Mclaren, has all the sense in the world to build two cars equally competitive to maximise their chance of competition.

But in 1999, when TGF had broken his leg, Ferrari had chances to win WDC with Irvine. They prefer to loose his wheel, to give the wrong orders from boxes, to start the baiting within the team... Just because IT SHOULD BE MICHAEL'S TITUL. Nobody of the team (it was TGF's team) even had congratulate Eddie his wins. Have you seen Jean Todt or somebody else of Ferrari bosses on the podium getting Grnd Prix for the tean's win when it was Irvine's win?

Gt_R · 28 Jun 2001, 17:59 (Ref:110803)

I guess you really believe that the team did their best to cock up Eddie's chances? How about this. Sepang 1999, Michael let Eddie through, helped him to a win and successfully hold the Mclarens back. When Ferrari was disqualified from the race, Ferrari threw in their appeal and their lawyers and dug up all the arguments to fight for the retaining of the points, thereby salvaging Eddie's championship hopes and giving him another chance at it in Suzuka. They also implemented team orders in Hockenheim to let Eddie win ahead of MS. If they really think that MS should have the title, would they go to the extent?

And as for a team management going to collect a win. It is now common practice for so-called "lesser" personnels to represent the team. Instead of blasting all these as ****, try to think that this is Ferrari's way of motivating every leading character ie Personal Race engineer to work to their best and get rewarded...

JeremySmith · 28 Jun 2001, 18:07 (Ref:110809)

During the 1999 Season Eddie Irvine had every opportunity to win the WDC..Jean Todt pleaded with Michael to come back and help Eddie which he did at Malaysia..Eddie could still not get the job done..Irvine who I am fond of because I think he is an honest bloke, admitted that he was NOT as fast as Michael..Like Michael, Eddie Irvine is pragmatic and realised that he needed to be the number one driver in a team like Jaguar so that the focus would be more on him than the slower driver..There was talk that Eddie Irvine asked Jaguar for the drive rather than the other way around..

Ralf's Girl · 28 Jun 2001, 18:15 (Ref:110818)

IMO, there are two main reasons why drivers do not want to partner TGF at Ferrari (or any other team):

The first is that TGF does have a say in who his team-mate is, which is why a driver who can obviously beat him will not be his team-mate. For example, TGF has said he doesn't want to ever be Ralf's team-mate "because one of us would always lose out". What he actually meant was that Ralf, given equal equipment, could beat him.

And secondly, no driver will go and be TGF's team-mate if he wants a realistic chance of winning. That's the mistake Barrichello made - he thought that he was signing a contract giving him equal status with TGF, when he clearly wasn't. And his renewed contract has taken away his right to free speech, and he's no longer allowed to criticise the team publicly. No doubt TGF can do that all he likes.

Although both of his team-mates at Ferrari, Irvine and Barrichello, simply haven't been as fast as TGF, they were never really given the chance.

JeremySmith · 28 Jun 2001, 18:30 (Ref:110829)

Complete and utter nonsense.. Michael should have a say..why waste the second seat and make Ferrari look like nitwits after the huge amount of work that Michael has put in over the last few years including countless testing hours..Who is going to beat him in a Ferrari..Let's hear some names, the floor is open.

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