Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I suspect that they want to be the ones to share it. Fair enough, it's their stuff. I also suspect that this line of discussion will be more 'popular' (easy) than actual discussion of their race.

Fine, so let me share some of my own copyright in light of a "popular" discussion.

I think, objectively, the Nissans were not ready to be part of the Le Mans race. Their best shot ended up being not classified and outrun by Kolles. Several other drivers (both P2 and GTE if I'm not mistaken) complained about the moving obstacles. Those are (some of) the facts. Another Fact is also that they brought an unconventional design, show-cased a potential alternative, and got many more people wondering, "what would happen if they got it to work" which is better than e.g. Kolles, so I suppose they deserved their place their after all. On a human level it's nice for the people involved obiously that they (and others, even if some of them may have burnt their car so long it ended up too light) made it to the line.

The thing that I'm personally interested in is the aerodynamics with the through-tunnels. Now we know this thing doesn't have all the drive it should have, that includes (potentially) shafts that weren't there in their LM configuration, etc., but I got to wonder whether the downforce that's produced by the car is dependent on a straight in-flow of air. I.e., I keep hearing that once they got their all wheel drive, driving the rears, they'll get around a corner quicker, and I suppose a bit of oversteer for a change wouldn't hurt but .. can they really travel around the corner (mid-corner) significantly faster with just added rear wheel drive? I don't think so (but IANA racing engineer). So it's going to be interesting to see whether this concept can end up being fine-tuned towards cornering "as well" while retaining their straight-line characteristics. What was the final verdict on the thing? It's not just a Le Mans special, and it will corner, right? I'll be at the next round to see myself.

[Adam43]

There was talk about a different aero package on RLM. It's got a lot to do to help at circuits other than LM. Especially as, to my eyes, some of the cornering issue was particularly apparent in slow corners.

However the development should make big steps especially as there is ten weeks to the next race (something they were relieved about in another interview on RLM) and it is still early days in the development.

It'll be good to see.

[wewantourdarbyback]

As it's an aero concept designed specifically with Le Mans in mind, and they don't seem confident of having the full power unit working by the end of the season, I think it's likely any major progress will come next season.

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by wewantourdarbyback

As it's an aero concept designed specifically with Le Mans in mind, and they don't seem confident of having the full power unit working by the end of the season, I think it's likely any major progress will come next season.

This is a fair statement. It even goes beyond the power unit though. It appears there may be issues with the gearbox, so even with the power unit (including hybrid) working correctly, they still won't be able to get it to the ground. Then assuming all of that magically works, the chassis appears to be traction limited until the rear axle drive is working, which is unlikely to be this year? All in all, Nissan have proven the concept to me, however I can't see it being massively faster until next year. If they can get the systems working and tie it together, while meeting the weight and power limits, it could work.

[wolfhound]

If the Nissan lacks low speed cornering which is about mechanical grip it appears to have only one strength at the moment low drag and straight line speed. Is there any where else it appears to be at least equal to other cars as at the moment it seems to be a one trick pony.

[Starfish Primer]

This car wasn´t ready to be raced at Le Mans and the performance was ridiculous for a factory effort. Let´s see next year and the remaining of the WEC season but they have a lot of pending work. The car braked before the GTE-Am in some places and at Tertre Rouge it was complicated to see it following the same line lap by lap.

I still cannot believe how a team that in 2014 brought a hybrid car capable of doing a lap in electric mode this year has a huge problems with the hybrid system. Supposedly they´ve made an electric lap on 2014, now in 2015 I doubt this was even achieved.

It would be better if NISMO starts to invest more money in engineering than in PR, you can lie everybody once or lie one person forever but you cannot lie everybody forever. They can throw tons of money to Radionissan and more media ( in some Spanish newspapers they don´t mention the position) to wash the result but ACO classification is clear, DNQ for the three cars.

And despite Darren Clown and they hired journos I still dream to see this being competitive.

PS: At the end of the podium ceremony the "open to the fans" team had all the pit doors closed while may other teams had them open and remaining fans could talk to the mechanics and team members still around.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Toyota didn't finish in 2012.

Toyota wasn't cruising around in pit limiter speed trying to save off parts for 24 hours, and they also had on track accidents leading up to ultimate retirements.

Whenever Ben Bowlby was seen last week he seemed genuinely humble and honest of how things were going on in his comments and outlook, I was genuinely impressed by that. But when it was time to the usual smile-glued-to-his-face PR garbage machine Darren Cox to open his mouth, as well as to these official press releases, it's the same sugarcoated nonsense I've grown SO tired of. That and the ever moving goal posts for damage limitation are what annoy me, not really even the lackluster performances of these cars.

Also mr Chamberlain on Eurosport, good for you on being honest.

[chernaudi]

I'll agree that the Nissan has a crapload of problems and their performance was for sure lackluster against Toyota and especially Audi and Porsche, the latter two especially over the years have made entering the sport as a factory team look almost easy.

But we also have to remember all the hell Porsche had with the 919 during it's development and that the fact that they went from getting podiums with luck to having a competitive car that's now a LM winner, strife has turned to joy.

And Audi has had a similar story with the R18 2015 vs 2014. They've already won the same number of WEC races as we near halfway into this season as they have all last season, and only missed out on winning LM this year mostly because of bodywork issues.

I'm not saying that Nissan will have a similar turn around a year from now, but it's almost certain that future races will be easier on the team now that they got the notes from LM.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Toyota wasn't cruising around in pit limiter speed trying to save off parts for 24 hours, and they also had on track accidents leading up to ultimate retirements.

That's definitely true. The Toyota was more impressive and even fought with Audi until their retirements. But, they did retire.

Ultimately, because of all the setbacks, this was a test session for Nissan. And they learned a lot. They have 9 months till Silverstone to build a competitive car.

[Bell_End]

I give them another crack next year before the car gets wheeled into the Nissan HQ in the USA and the blow their own trumpet about being the only FWD LMP1 to run at Le Mans.

[aneesh99]

Bowlby needs to be the one talking and not Darren Cox, who at times, is apparently happy to make statements not remotely grounded in reality. I'm with Chiana, nothing but impressed with Ben. Even in the lead up when DC was talking big, he seemed far more on the level. I suppose that's the difference between an engineer that actually understands what's going on and a media mouthpiece.

From day one, I worried that this was PR driven programme. Time that changes before Nissan really start to lose all of their credibility. Nothing but respect for the engineers, mechanics and drivers who are putting their heart and soul into the car and taking the criticism on the chin.

[TF110]

We already know its a 2-year program, for now. They should ditch the tricky hybrid system and go for a more reliable one, if they can. The rest of the car will come together with more time and development.

Of the known issues there shouldnt be much trouble fixing. The gearbox was probably 5-gears for lower weight, but theres a new one coming. They lack traction and are slow in the low speed stuff, tire and suspension development could help. Braking is a big issue. That can get better with tires and a working hybrid. The hybrid can also improve speed and efficiency. I think theres plenty of hope for the car. It just needs time, and they have it.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TF110

We already know its a 2-year program, for now. They should ditch the tricky hybrid system and go for a more reliable one, if they can. The rest of the car will come together with more time and development.

Funnily enough, the chassis and aero has been done so well that they could probably fit something a bit heavier and bulkier(but more reliable) and have the resulting effect on the aero and weight rather effectively addressed by having the hybrid system actually FUNCTIONAL.

I'm sure it's something they'll be considering in the offseason.

[hcl123]

There is hope for the car with a complete revision of the design (attending maintaining the same monocoque)... engine is good, but those rear tires must go (Porsche demonstrates for pulverizing LM track record, cornering and intermediary speed is the key, not top speeds), and the hybrid system must be 'electric' for control and Rear Wheel Drive capability for better dynamic balance ( they can maintain FWD, but better i think would be engine in front but rear wheel drive)

[jswarde]

Originally Posted by hcl123

There is hope for the car with a complete revision of the design (attending maintaining the same monocoque)... engine is good, but those rear tires must go (Porsche demonstrates for pulverizing LM track record, cornering and intermediary speed is the key, not top speeds), and the hybrid system must be 'electric' for control and Rear Wheel Drive capability for better dynamic balance ( they can maintain FWD, but better i think would be engine in front but rear wheel drive)

hcl123, I do not understand your prejudice against the potentially superior mechanical hybrid that Nissan are seeking to deploy. As far as we know the hybrid works fine but has yet to be integrated successfully into the racecar - not enough development time so far. Your faith in electrical hybrid technology is touching but perhaps a bit blinkered - lets wait and see if Nissan can capitalise on the mechanical hybrids advantages. Nissan are to be applauded for thinking outside the box, if you pardon the pun!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by jswarde

hcl123, I do not understand your prejudice against the potentially superior mechanical hybrid that Nissan are seeking to deploy. As far as we know the hybrid works fine but has yet to be integrated successfully into the racecar - not enough development time so far. Your faith in electrical hybrid technology is touching but perhaps a bit blinkered - lets wait and see if Nissan can capitalise on the mechanical hybrids advantages. Nissan are to be applauded for thinking outside the box, if you pardon the pun!

I find it odd that people say the hybrid works, just not in the car. Square wheels work under certain circumstances, but that doesn't mean they work in the car.

Until the hybrid system is plugged into the car and can run, this isn't a working system. Otherwise they could make a 10,000hp hybrid system and never put it in the car and declare it a success.

[jswarde]

[QUOTE=Akrapovic;3551484]I find it odd that people say the hybrid works, just not in the car. QUOTE]

akrapovic; I find it odd to suggest that the hybrid does not work when we have quotes from Nissan saying that it does. It is obvious that all components depend on integration into the complete system to function correctly. There is an iterative development process to find the best compromise. It is also obvious that Nissan tried to achieve too much too soon by predicting that they would run at Silverstone 2015 and with an 8mJ hybrid this year. However blaming the hybrid, and by implication the hybrid supplier, is just a bit suspect without having very detailed knowledge of the agreements between the participants. The flywheel hybrid has some clear attractions both technically and environmentally; I hope that Nissan will be able to deliver a successful car with flywheel hybrid in due course. But if it were easy others would have done it already! It is tough pushing technology boundaries against the clock.

[Akrapovic]

We also had quotes from Nissan making a lot of grand claims and promises which were slowly reeled back in. They may very well have a working hybrid system. It probably works great sitting on a table in the workshop of the supplier. However, what we do know for a fact is that it doesn't yet work in the car. So right now, the Nissan GTR LM does not have a working hybrid system. Saying they have a working hybrid system is like saying the car has a coffee machine in it, because the workshop has a working coffee machine.

And someone will come in and tell me to shut up and I don't know what I'm talking about, but the big fact here is - that car has never ever raced, or even been driven in a competitive session, with a hybrid system that works in the car.

I want Nissan to succeed because it'd be fantastic for someone to do something madly different and do well. However they will not be a success if we continue to lavish them with praise which is either misplaced, or in some cases completely false. Being too slow to be classified and then being too far behind at the end of the race is not something which should be celebrated. Claiming a hybrid system works when it blatantly doesn't, should not be given credit. Credit should be given when they (hopefully) make this concept work. Otherwise I'm going to enter a 3 wheeled car and when I qualify last, I want it to be declared a huge success.

[rdjones]

I still think Nissan did a good job last week, people have to remember they are doing there development in public.

I have just been checking to see when Porsche confirmed there P1 program it was 11 June 2012. The car's first race was on April 2014 so that is two years development before there race debut. Nissan confirmed there P1 program on 23 May 2014 with a race debut 13 months later. So who is to say that Porsche didn't have the same problems as Nissan but behind closed door in the 2 years that they where developing there car.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by rdjones

I still think Nissan did a good job last week, people have to remember they are doing there development in public.

I have just been checking to see when Porsche confirmed there P1 program it was 11 June 2012. The car's first race was on April 2014 so that is two years development before there race debut. Nissan confirmed there P1 program on 23 May 2014 with a race debut 13 months later. So who is to say that Porsche didn't have the same problems as Nissan but behind closed door in the 2 years that they where developing there car.

Porsche's technical director joined the program in October 2011.

[Akrapovic]

Wasn't the ZEODs entry to Garage 56 based on Nissan committing to running a P1 car in the future? That car was unveiled in June 2013 and granted entry the same year.

[chewy23]

The fact that the programme was not publicly announced until May 2014 does not mean that was when it started. This programme has had a much, much longer gestation than most realise.

[jswarde]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

However, what we do know for a fact is that it doesn't yet work in the car. So right now, the Nissan GTR LM does not have a working hybrid system.

Your fixation about the hybrid is misplaced; I think the bigger issue is that Nissan do not have a competitive car yet and that has very little to with the hybrid. Just read DC claiming the car ran without the hybrid engaged and that 8mJ would be worth 4 seconds a lap at Le Mans. Big deal? That would move them up from unclassified finisher to ... umh unclassified finisher! It does not sound much like a working Hybrid will solve all problems at a stroke when they are looking for 20+ seconds a lap.

[lne937s]

Although hindsight is 20/20, I kind of wish they had run in LMP2 this year and then moved up to LMP1 next year. The engines is arguably production-based (for the next GTR). Then they could concentrate on getting the Aero, layout, chassis and suspension figured out, as they really do not have a baseline to start from. As it stood, the car evidently had less horsepower and about the same weight as an LMP2 but was able to lap the track faster. At LMP2 regs, they also could have tuned the engine for more power, as they would not have the LMP1-H consumption restrictions without the benefit of a working hybrid system.

I know they Nissan engines already power up most of the lower prototype classes, but I think it could have been a good way to ease into LMP1. On one level, I can appreciate the "start a fight with the toughest kid on the playground and keep fighting till you are the toughest kid on the playground" approach, but it is painful to watch right now.

[prototype]

I don't see a reason for them to continue in the WEC this year. They have a lot of data after Le Mans, and it looks like their time will be best spent developing next year's car.

It will be interesting to see what happens.