JPm/MS 1st lap who was to blame? (merged)

[Knowlesy]

Didn't you know that's the case Damon?

[Damon]

Perhaps they should start giving points for a drivers performance in press conferences too!

[Knowlesy]

Well it'd liven the title race up!

[Gt_R]

Damon...let's not drag MS's history and judge this incident by itself... Frankly, what do you think is wrong?

And JPM proved just 2 s afterwards that he ain't angel either when he did exactly what MS did to Alonso in Silverstone on Ralf...yet nobody complained? (i for one see both incident PLUS Ralf/Alonso incident today as racing incidents)

And JPM ought to just check the tapes than just go around accusing MS of banging him out on the grass..check the tapes and his face will be as (orange)-red as a Ferrari.

[Damon]

As you keep trying to bring the Ralf incident up in multiple threads Gt_R I'll give you the dubious benefit of my point of view. In that one Ralf took to the grass after JPM had moved over to try and pass. Ralf was not alonside when the move was made. As I said earlier in this thread, there is no problem with closing the door when a car is behind, it's when its almost entirely alongside that I see a problem.

With Schu/JPM, perhaps Michael wanted to aviod a repeat of Nurburgring last year when JPM did manage to pass him on the outside. Perhaps I should dig up a few of those threads as a reminder of the Schu fans reaction to that?

[Knowlesy]

It certainly can't be compared with the Alonso/MS Silverstone incident which was an absolute and total disgrace.

[fog_shadow]

geez get a grip, michael just held his line. sure it was aggressive, but this isn't kindergarten JPM. when are you going to learn not to stomp your feet and throw tantrums?

forget JPM, did anyone notice how michael was trying his best not to laugh at JPM during the press conference? a race filled with incidents and the most entertainment came after the race. i have to admit i was expecting JPM to drop kick michael as michael was bending over spraying champagne on his team.

shadow

[Gt_R]

Hehh...Damon Thanks..but you realised that my point isn't to BLAME JPM (or any drivers) for any incidents (as i've said they are just racing incidents nothing more), but rather, draw the point that there's no need to jump on every race incident we see on track. (in fact, i was laughing in agreement when my commentator suggested Ralf took himself to the grass for NO reasons)

I think there's a difference between hard racing and taking your opponents out. And i'm NOT a fan of "taking your opponent out" and won't be stingy with my crits if there are such stuffs (even if MS is the culprit in *ahem*), but i do like racing, and racing hard. Honestly, i find it tiring that every race, there would be people pouncing on the tiniest of contacts (esp if MS is involved)... i mean, can't those boy-band drivers rough it out?

Anyways, i've watched the replay AGAIN and once again, i did not see MS turning into JPM, rather it just re-confirmed my stance that JPM is really making an opportunistic move.

[Wrex]

Every now and again on this forum, we hypocracy demonstrated at its highest level. Today, its the Montoya fans turn to show us how it is done.

Without a leg to stand on, instead of coming in here and saying "hey thats Juan, he made a mistake, looked a bit like a spoilt child in the press conference, but at least he had a go", they somehow think they can shift this onto that evil German Fellow.

Well people like their driver, and sometimes that clouds judgment, I can understand that. But where this gets really funny, is that not 100m up the road he pushes his own team mate off and thats "racing".

Sorry guys, while I saw nothing wrong with either incident from Juans side, I do and will take issue with the blame being put at Michael or Ralfs feet and his 'crybaby' routine in the press conference.

We saw two things today, the difference between a multiple world champion and a wanna-be, and another blow to the 'Montoya races better wheel-to-wheel than Michael' brigade.

But by all means, continue, as this will make for some interesting quotes at a later date.

[Shoe-maker]

Michael held his proper line round that corner. There was nothing wrong with that, although I'm sure certain people will suggest otherwise.

[f1atic]

F1atic, get over it. How on earth do a few words spouted out of frustation at a press conference deminish a drivers ability to win races?!

A few words at a press conference say a lot of the stature of the man. Without reviewing anything, JPM came out and accused MS of running him off the road. JPM lacks character, is immature, impetuous and impatient. Those traits will haunt him thoroughout life and not just on the track. Which is very sad as he has perhaps the most raw talent on the grid.

Michael didn't take a "defensive" line in the corner. His line was his line, to which most would agree, was his line being first in the corner and on his race line. His line was virtually the same in every lap that followed during the race.

Some forumer commented that in a slow motion review, it appeared Michael did turn the wheel right slightly. I would also suggest that anyone who has ever raced, that is called countering a slide, which frequently happens in a turn, especially on cold tires.

[marcus]

I think it was worth a shot from juans view , good knows the start is the only time anyonbe can get near michael , but around the outside of someone is a tall ask and michael simply kept his line and Juan ran out of road , oh well as I said was worth having a go and didnt work out for him , as for the Ralf incident a few yards up the track I honestly dunno I wasnt watching what Juan was doing (he may have moved over he may not) I was to busy laughing at ralf for driving on the grass at full tilt for as long as he did , lucky he had traction control

[Gt_R]

Haha..you know Wrex...i spend tons of posts yet the impact and point can't be driven as clearly as you could in ONE post! Basically, i agree with ya!

It's great if a driver "go for it", but it's equally important when he knows he can't make it... just ask *ahem* ralf

[Damon]

I just sure as hell hope I never meet any of you guys on a race track, if you see that kind of driving acceptable then you're gonna get yourselves killed.

Wrex, I know full well who those comments are aimed at and take offensive when my points, which I've backed up with examples, context and history can be so bluntly dismissed as blind fanboyism. I don't think anyone has stated at any point that Schu was at fault or did anything wrong, it simply displayed a style of driving which i personally find unacceptable at the highest level of this sport. As I have also stated, each incident is very different and you know full well that Ralf deciding to take to the grass in order to try to pass is very different to being forced on to it.

[Sodemo]

Michael put the power on early coming out of Tosa and "understeered" wide which is why from TGF's on-board cam his front tyres are scraping across the tarmac, he then "understeered" into Montoya who was on the outside.

[Knowlesy]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Haha..you know Wrex...i spend tons of posts yet the impact and point can't be driven as clearly as you could in ONE post! Basically, i agree with ya!

It's great if a driver "go for it", but it's equally important when he knows he can't make it... just ask *ahem* ralf

To be fair, it's easy for you to say this.

[Gt_R]

Yeah..that's why they are paid Millions to do it while i get to eat peanuts while watching them.

[Wrex]

Damon, how can you so blatently promote this double standard of yours without blushing?

Juan ran into Michael (who was on the racing line), then almost ran into Ralf (who was taking advantage of Juans last error) but somehow its not his fault?

Yet in other races when Monty has done similar stuff, you want to pat him on the back and stick the 'best racer' badge on his chest? Are you serious?


Montoya fans seem to be suffering from the same problems as Montoya himself - They dont know when to give up on a lost cause, and add to the error by not admitting the mistake afterwards.

[Knowlesy]

And when he gives up on a lost cause he's criticised....jeez.

[Sodemo]

I think you have to look back a few corners before Tosa and see that TGF chopped Juan going into Villenueve, which im sure JPM was ****ed off with. At the end of the day, what does it matter? Its obvious what TGF is going to do when put in that situation.
We have seen this same action at:
Spa 2000 (with Mika)
Brazil 2002 (with JPM)
Silverstone 2003 (with Alonso
Hungary 2003 (with JPM)
And nothing is ever done.
It might be legal (just) but it isn't sporting.

And yes what JPM did to Ralf was as bad as what TGF did to JPM, but without proper camera replays its difficult to apportion blame (I mean how far alongside was Ralf?)

[Gt_R]

Let's just draw this argument to a close k? Both guys wanted the same and best piece of tarmac...MS got there first and that's the end. To push the blame to MS who's perfectly entitled and correct in his actions, then claim FIA if fair ought to investigate MS really illogical today.

[Damon]

I didn't realise attempting to pass the great-Schu is classed is an error! It's not double standards to recognise that each incident has its own very seperate set of circumstances. JPM is far from above criticism and when he makes a genuine mistake I've flagged them as such. Check back to posts circa Austria 2002, Canada 2001, Melbourne 2003... Schu, however, apparently is above such criticism.

[jj2728]

Originally posted by Damon

it simply displayed a style of driving which i personally find unacceptable at the highest level of this sport.

anyone remember when mansell was forced into the grass at tamburello i believe in 89/90?.....point i'm making is, this is a ruthless sport and i'm not saying that anyone goes out of their way to risk harm either to himself or others, but until jpm realizes that if he wants to take the fight to ms, then he is going to have to FIGHT ms and give back as good as he gets and do it fairly and squarely....

[Damon]

Yeah, that was 1990, and I seem to remember Berger was roundly criticised for it.

[Gt_R]

Damon, honestly i think this discussion ought to end...let's continue after a cup of hot coffee. (or Red berry Vodka mix for me).

And let's not start a "MS above criticism"....because the criticism he gets in this forum for THIS incident is bordering ridiculous.

JPM tried an over ambitious overtaking move and hoped for it to succeed. It'd be great if he did, but It didn't and they touched. JPM is pratically trying to force his way onto MS's line, and no reasons why MS is blamed just because JPM failed and came off worse. And JPM can't accept defeat if history had shown...it's always somebody's fault. Frankly, he ought to check the tapes before making a poorly judged statement in the press.

MS CAN be criticised, but not for no good reasons.