Can Sauber do it?

[Jordi]

Well, can they do it? They are better than McLaren at this point...

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Jordi
Well, can they do it? They are better than McLaren at this point...

I suspect they won't be for long.

[JohnSSC]

I think the point that is being missed here is that the items Ferrari ships to Sauber are parts. Those parts, however finely crafted, have to be assembled properly and in acogent fashion that allows each part to perform to it's maximum AND in harmony with all the other parts.

Translated: The devil is in the details. Sauber just hasn;t got the boffins it needs to put the packages together in the optimum fashion.

[gttouring]

my thoughts exactly- Sauber is the ferrari test bed, they can try to win what they want but the winners in the test now would be consistent podiums and a slavage win if no ferrari shows up- ideally as the pilots there would graduate to ferrari.
but as we see the sauber doesn't have the minerals.
the drivers balk and can't pull it out with supposedly superior equipment to many out there (jordan minardi jaguar...) but the drivers and the team flounder about like drunks, shouldn't they be behind ferrari and renault almost every step of the way?
Honda pulls it out now that things have gotten desperate, toyota is just floundering it is a sad state of affairs...
Suaber has shown they can no longer get it done, now as they are the understudy team, amongst other things.

[JohnSSC]

It is a sad case of the final product being less than the sum of it's parts.

My thoughts were almost exactly yours when the season started: decent drivers, current iteration Ferrari engine/gearbox (per Sauber's own website) and a rolling chassis looking remarkably like a Ferrari. I am thinking consistent Top Six with the potential for the odd podium.

Well, I have been wrong before, will be again and was wrong at the time - I just didn't know it yet!

[GP Racer]

Its amazing how little I have to say about this team.

I can talk about Minardi, and Jordan, as bad as they are, simply because they have at least given us some things to get excited about over the years, but Sauber? What an anonomous team they are. They offer there fans, if there are any, little hope of getting better, and almost no hope of ever winning anything, and for drivers, there a dead-end for there careers.

Can Sauber do it? No...

[Inigo Montoya]

You can't get excited about Sauber because they offer their fans little hope for getting better? But you have not problem getting excited about Jordan or Minardi?

How about this year's Ferrari engine and gearbox, two top class drivers, and a state-of-the-art wind tunnel?

[Gt_R]

Actually, it is quite unfortunate that people fail to recognise and appreciate how well Sauber operates.

They've been in F1 for a little more than a decade, and while within this period they didn't produce a win, nor have spectacular results, they have done many things right.

Firstly, the financial side. Sauber is a privateer team, and while you see fellow teams like Jordan and Minardi struggle for cash and complaining about how FIA should help, Sauber just get on with their job. And they spend within their means pretty much wisely - something quite difficult considering how tempting it is to match the big boys spendings. Look at teams like Prost, like Arrows...now Minardi and Jordan...

Secondly, Sauber had an ability to retain the support of loyal sponsors. Petronas (who foot the bills for those Ferrari units/etc), Credit, etc etc have stayed with the team. And Sauber had the ability to let his team grow in a way that many privateer teams could only dream (ie building a windtunnel), Sauber had kept his team attractive to prospective investors.

And then there are Kimi and Massa, and a few others before them. Sauber had the dare to try new young drivers, believing that they are good (not just because they bring the cash)...and this eye for bright kids is balanced by Sauber's desire to have quality good drivers (such as Fisi, HHF) in his team when possible.

Unfortunately, Sauber's ability (as with some smaller teams) is often compromised when the larger teams just prey on any talents that work for Sauber. Kimi is promptly stolen, good engineers/designers are tempted away... under such harsh conditions, it makes the task of competing with the big boys even harder.

Sauber is one of the relatively low profile team, they don't try to be as attention grabbing as Jordan nor do they often get negative publicity from "begging" like Paul. And we must applaud privateer teams who could work in a pretty well organised manner like Peter managed to do for Sauber.

[D-bass]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Actually, it is quite unfortunate that people fail to recognise and appreciate how well Sauber operates.

They've been in F1 for a little more than a decade, and while within this period they didn't produce a win, nor have spectacular results, they have done many things right.

Firstly, the financial side. Sauber is a privateer team, and while you see fellow teams like Jordan and Minardi struggle for cash and complaining about how FIA should help, Sauber just get on with their job. And they spend within their means pretty much wisely - something quite difficult considering how tempting it is to match the big boys spendings. Look at teams like Prost, like Arrows...now Minardi and Jordan...

Secondly, Sauber had an ability to retain the support of loyal sponsors. Petronas (who foot the bills for those Ferrari units/etc), Credit, etc etc have stayed with the team. And Sauber had the ability to let his team grow in a way that many privateer teams could only dream (ie building a windtunnel), Sauber had kept his team attractive to prospective investors.

And then there are Kimi and Massa, and a few others before them. Sauber had the dare to try new young drivers, believing that they are good (not just because they bring the cash)...and this eye for bright kids is balanced by Sauber's desire to have quality good drivers (such as Fisi, HHF) in his team when possible.

Unfortunately, Sauber's ability (as with some smaller teams) is often compromised when the larger teams just prey on any talents that work for Sauber. Kimi is promptly stolen, good engineers/designers are tempted away... under such harsh conditions, it makes the task of competing with the big boys even harder.

Sauber is one of the relatively low profile team, they don't try to be as attention grabbing as Jordan nor do they often get negative publicity from "begging" like Paul. And we must applaud privateer teams who could work in a pretty well organised manner like Peter managed to do for Sauber.

Nicely put!!!!

[f1manoz]

Sauber need their OWN manufacturer before wins can happen. Ferrari power is one thing, but it's certainly nowhere near the competitiveness of the engine in the back of TGF/Rubens car.

[Gt_R]

Sauber has an engine which is for the past 7 races and most of last season, better than the one in Mclaren. And the engine Sauber have this year is comparative to BMW and Renault, while better than Mercedes/Ford. And Sauber is using the unit Ferrari used at AGP this year...it's the same spec, yet Sauber struggled because they couldn't make the rest of the package work.

So i would think that own manufacturer doesn't promise alot more if the manufacturer performs like Mercedes or Ford

They don't have their OWN manufacturer because there's none. Sauber is aligning himself to be attractive to prospective manufacturers (with the investments in facilities,etc), but right now, the Ferrari engine is one of the strength of the Sauber package.

They need to really improve their chassis by leaps before they need to worry about the engine side.

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Gt_R
And they spend within their means pretty much wisely - something quite difficult considering how tempting it is to match the big boys spendings. Look at teams like Prost, like Arrows...now Minardi and Jordan...

Minardi have never tried to match the big boys spending.

Ron Dennis has recently praised Paul Stoddard for his "frugal approach" and says it would be impossible to run a team on less money.

Kimi is promptly stolen

Kimi was sold, not stolen.

And it was thanks to doing that Sauber were in a financial position to build their wind tunnell.

Works both ways.

They may improve in future, but as of now, they're not doing any better than in their debut - the South African Grand Prix of 1993, where JJ Lehto qualified 6th and finished 5th.



Incidentally - that race also saw Christian Fittipaldi qualify 13th and finish 4th - for Minardi!

[Glen]

Originally posted by f1manoz
Sauber need their OWN manufacturer before wins can happen. Ferrari power is one thing, but it's certainly nowhere near the competitiveness of the engine in the back of TGF/Rubens car.

I know there is no way to be sure, and that what you say sounds like it makes sense, but the truth is that none of us can say this for sure. A hell of a lot of car performance has nothing to do with engine power, and just because the Sauber bears more than a superficial resemblance to the F2003GA it does not by any means follow that the chassis and aero performance will be similar. The extra seconds come from testing, testing and testing - Sauber simply cannot afford to do this and hence the performance gap.

If Ferrari themselves were still using last year's chassis with this year's engine but with relatively little testing and simulation (certainly far less than the leading teams) their performance wold be distinctly mid-field too.

Put it another way - take the Sauber spec Ferrari engine and re-hash the Renault to accomodate it... there would be one hell of car - and all with supposedly less power than the class of the field.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
They may improve in future, but as of now, they're not doing any better than in their debut - the South African Grand Prix of 1993, where JJ Lehto qualified 6th and finished 5th.



Incidentally - that race also saw Christian Fittipaldi qualify 13th and finish 4th - for Minardi!

That race was in the wet, and saw most of the front-runners break down or crash - only Prost and Senna survived.

[Kicking-back]

It was actually dry and hot for most of the race, with rain near the end.

That's bye-the-bye anyway, Sauber were still 6th on the grid - something they don't often get near now.

Just show's how much tougher the game gets all the time.

[GTRMagic]

So put Mark Webber in a Sauber then... he's been linked everywhere else

[Viceroy]

Sauber´s engine was the same as Ferrari´s at the start of the season. They have not got an update yet. At best they´ll get a small update later in the season.

[courageous]

Sauber could win a race, hell if Jordan did it last year then anyone can (BTW, I love Jordan, I am simply saying that sometimes luck will throw a total anomaly).
The problem with Sauber is, as others have said is they are customers to another team. They may have the new windtunnel to combat their normal perrenial mid-grid status, but they will always be number 2 as far as Ferrari engines & Bridgestone tyres go.

[GP Racer]

If Sauber was going to make a move, this was the year to do it.

All those nice Ferrari bits, 2 decent drivers, a new windtunnel, and most importantly, 2 of the top teams are in big trouble, Williams and McLaren, and yet with all of that, they are still solidly stuck in the mid-field, dicing around with the Jordans and the equally awful Jaguar.

This was a great season to make a statement, and they should have been running up towards the front, with BAR and Renault, but instead we got more of the same, total anonimity.

[Gt_R]

Unfortunately for them, they couldn't exploit the new windtunnel with the introduction of the new car + new Ferrari engine. By the time the advantages of the windtunnel came, the Ferrari engines were already half year old.

But honestly, Sauber have good drivers + good facilities + rivals self-distructing.... and should really use this opportunity to challenge the top 4.

[D-bass]

Sauber Sixth place

More points for Sauber and fifth position in the world Constructors championships, Sauber are on the move remember, what Peter Sauber said 'The worst thing you can do is set a timeline and find out that you can't achieve it,’ 'We don't have such a timeline, but winning is still very much something we seek to achieve, Sauber are getting batter.

[Dani Filth]

The Sauber . is probably better then the F2003GA . but the others have gained much more ...