Fire Extinguiser Servicing

[SPA-DESIGN]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Some of you may remember that I had an under bonnet fire a couple of years ago that the "genuine" (filled from new) extinguisher failed to put out.(there was a "longish" thread about it at the time).
As some of us know because of legislation the old Halon ones (that were brilliant) were fazed out and replaced with a less effective type.
The firm that refills my extinguishers at work belongs to and old friend that has done nothing else for 40+ years and refills/weighs loads of different types for all sorts of applications including motor racing. Ironically he has a couple of Halon ones hanging on his wall in his workshop.
My point is if its done properly and as there is no proper clarification, why should it matter who does it ?

Halon was the best extinguishant in the world but was banned for environmental reasons and in some countries you can be arrested for using it.

AFFF was the only cheap alternative at the time there are now some new halon type gas replacement out there but expensive.

The fire suppression systems for racing are the minimum requirement governed by the motor sport ruling bodies, there function is to suppress the fire and allow the occupant time to evacuate the vehicle there is no 100% guarantee they will put out a fire, all fires are different and there are many factors involved which will affect the outcome of a fire.

These suppression systems are like 2.25 – 4 litre in capacity and split to cover 2 areas, when you compare this to the amount of fuel you have on board it’s a no win situation.

[ascona i2000]

I had my SPA 2.25l ext serviced at Merlins yesterday while i waited, (10-15mins). Exact cost was £24.90. JUst thought i would mention it.

[R59]

Originally Posted by SPA-DESIGN

Be sure of your facts before making claims like that.

If by chance they do refill the system they will use a basic commercial AFFF extinguishant fluid which is not suitable for the various race fuels used in motor sport, we use a special formula of AFFF which is tried and tested and will work on all types of fuel like methanol, ethanol, diesel and alcohol based fuels.

Alcohol fuels are best extinguished with H2O = Water. Any fire fighter will tell you that. That's why Indycar have sodding great buckets of water in the pits.

AFFF is a poor performer for fuel fires when NOT backed up by a dry powder to cap it. Any person who wears Orange at weekends will have learned that too. Any person who's had a rally car go up in flames in a stage, and let loose anything up to 10Lt of AFFF over it, and still watched it burn to a cinder will also have found that out too (plenty of cases over the last few years)

I admit that AFFF is the best extinguishant for aircraft fires - because you have have a number of Thorneycroft (or whatever they're using) appliances squirting a couple of tens of thousand cubic metres of foam over the bird to put it out or stop it from going up works because of the utter volume, and continuous flow.

Yet our MSA still insist we carry one of the least effective extinguishers for vehicle fires - AFFF.

Look at the rules for hazardous loads, they specify ABC Powder - because it is suitable for the types of fire that could occur in a vehicle.

I've contacted the MSA a number of times, and all they can say is "you would need to submit them for homologation before we can approve them for use, and it will cost £X,000's".

Oh I do wish they'd wake up and listen.

And Mr SPA, I have no axe to grind with you guys - you're just following the MSA/FIA's edict. But please don't expect that we're all stupid when it comes to putting out fires.

[GORDON STREETER]

Well said R59 As I said, I might have well have peed on it for what good it did at the time. Anybody would think that we were setting the old Halon ones off at every meeting willy nilly. And if as the "powers that be" were blaming them amongst everything else that seems to be "flavour of the month" as far as global warming is concerned, for Christ sake get them back as its still "bloody cold" !!!

[zefarelly]

I saw a bad engine fire at Dijon in 2005, the Mustang it happened to was dragged back, fire out, slightly charred . . . . 2 hours later the POWDER was washed off, a replacement carb and hoses fitted and the car raced, albeit with a matt black bonnet, I can think of several cases, Gordon aside, where cars have suffered extensive damage due to the latest 'approved' FE's doing next to bugger all, like farting at a lighter

I kkep a few old CO2 FEs in my workshop, and an old powder one from my car!

[haggispeed]

Could SPA-Design provide more details about how the extinguishant "goes off" within the bottle as it ages ? It is recommended they are replaced after 2 years I'd just like to see some informaiton to back that up please. (and no I'm not running a very old extinguisher, it's new this year) and I additionally carry a BCF one in the van to do a proper job

[skentellytubby]

Sorry if this has been answered before but is it possible to get your extinguisher 'serviced' without sending it back to the manufacturer and still pass scrutineering (I couldnt quite work out if there was a conclusion)

I've got a Sparco Fire Warrior system and have been in touch with Sparco in Italy but no one seems to officially support it (some were actually made by Lifeline according to Demon Tweeks)

If I have to I guess I'll need to buy a new system!

[graham bahr]

as long as the gauge is in the green and weighs enough if it were to be weighed it should pass scruitieering

[R59]

Not for FIA events.....

[RF_Racer]

What do they look for in the FIA events? I believe a whole bunch of club racers are going to SPA this July, I wonder if they have thought about if their fire extinguishers are FIA complaint?

[Tim Falce]

They check the date that's written on the label and no doubt the gauge.

[terence]

As indeed they do every year they go.

[RF_Racer]

Yeah but I wonder how many of them are in date. Looking at some of the cars in Mono they do look a bit scrappy/scruffy. I doubt if their extinguishers are in date.

[Tim Falce]

My one is ten years old but it's still in date.

[markjtaylor]

When i bought my car, it came with a plumbed in system, vintage not known. I found a place in Sutton, Surrey, they tested and provided a certificate in about ten minutes while I waited for about £20. Can not remember their trading name but you cuod find them on the net somewhere.

[haggispeed]

I guess the main concerns of an old extinguisher is the condition of the contents, does it degrade in any way (hence my earlier question to SPA Design) and is the valve mechanism still reliable, which of course you can probably only determine by using it and therefore rendering it useless....

[GORDON STREETER]

I was at Thruxton a few years back when one of the scrutes pulled the extinguisher cable of one of the cars thinking it was the electrical cut out . Well it certainly worked and it stopped the guy racing that weekend !

[haggispeed]

seen the same thing happen at Castle Combe, luckily Merlin are on site so a replacement was found, however the driver had to pay for it not the scrute...

[Richy_Rich]

Best to leave the safety pin in for scruting then

I'm looking into replacing mine this year, I had a plumbed in system but I put it in in 2000 and had it locally serviced (they just stuck a sticker on which seemed good enough for UK events).

Does anyone have any advice on how best to position the nozzles for a plumbed in system for a small sports car? I used to have 2 arranged such that one was in the engine bay and the other pointing at my feet. I've no idea if this was sensible or recommended but no one ever questioned it. I just can't help thinking that the fuel tank is behind me, shouldn't I be more concerned with that going on fire than my feet? I don't fancy it pointing right at me either incase of accidental/over zealous triggering (might make it hard to get out with my face full of foam?)

[haggispeed]

good question, most people seem to install them with one at the carb / inlet area and one at the driver but I don't have one pointing at the driver, it is installed pointing at the fuel tank. I think that's probably the right way and it's never been questioned in scrutineering. Having just checked through the Blue Book (K 3.1.2) states "Medium.. for discharge into both cockpit and engine compartment" Cockpit presumably meaning where the driver sits (or the pit that houses the c*** behind the wheel...)

[MGDavid]

IMO best to point the nozzles at the likely source of a fire rather than the fuel store. I have two nozzles in the engine bay, one points at the carb, t'other at the fusebox and HT electrics. The one in the cockpit points at my legs and lap. The fuel tank & filler is firewalled from the cockpit a la blue book, it's also filled with foam blocks...

[haggispeed]

another possibility there then, obviously my tank is also firewalled and foam filled. So did your kit come with 3 nozzles ? as I've noticed most of them only come with two, something to do with the pressure drop across split lines.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by haggispeed

another possibility there then, obviously my tank is also firewalled and foam filled. So did your kit come with 3 nozzles ? as I've noticed most of them only come with two, something to do with the pressure drop across split lines.

it must have done as it's the only system of that type that I've bought.
I'm not under the illusion that the extinguisher will actually put a fire out, it's there for the scrutes...

[Richy_Rich]

Yup.. I guess I'll just put it back more or less how it was then. Obv. the tank etc. is firewalled off and foam filled. My fusebox in the cockpit on the passenger side and unlikely to cause any fires where it is as it's not mounted on or near anything flammable and the wiring is new, over-spec for the current drawn and not wrapped in an oil soaked cotton loom (it may still go on fire on it's own, but you could cut the electrics and blow it out if it did).

If I had a three nozzle system though I'd still be tempted to put one in the boot pointing at the tank...