Group A BMW 635 CSi - a popular, solid performer - Page 6

**John Turner** · 23 Jul 2006, 07:11 (Ref:1662524)

Well, Davyboy, that's part of what we are trying to achieve here; not just who raced them and what they did as contemporary racers but what has happened to them since; how many survive, who owns them etc. You're not volunteering are you?

davyboy · 23 Jul 2006, 08:13 (Ref:1662570)

This probably needs an Allen Brown / Chris Townsend type approach. Some threads on 10-10ths [to wake the dead], together with a site like oldracingcars.com which will elegantly catalogue them all... and some dilligent historians like Allen/Chris to administer the process. In fact maybe Allen could be persuaded to expand oldracingcars.com to include touring cars, that would also provide a place for the Rover and Capri info as well.

**John Turner** · 23 Jul 2006, 08:38 (Ref:1662588)

My post was slightly tongue-in-cheek, but I agree about the approach. However Allen and Chris, amongst others, are already contributing superbly to the Chassis Archive and we're looking to expand our contributor base. I think we may have one, in KA, for this thread! I'm not sure Allen is into Saloons and I'm rather hoping that 10-Tenths can fill some of the gaps to complement great sites like Allen's rather than simply do the research and then hand them off!

ian beckett · 23 Jul 2006, 08:49 (Ref:1662593)

Hi once again! As you will know I have been following the fortunes of these cars since day one and have amassed a lot of information in the form of photos,chassis histories and race results of which there are thousands over the career of the car.The biggest problem for me was the sheer scale of the task because at some races in the ETC,there were often over ten and sometimes as many as twenty cars to follow.Initially when the cars were new and competitive they all warranted a mention in the race magazines but as soon as they became slower and lesser teams bought them,then often they would only be mentioned in the results.The next problem came when they started to be raced in national series only and as in an earlier thread I outlined how many different championships there were,in those pre-internet days it became very difficult to follow a cars history.I was fortunate in developing contacts with many of the Australian and New Zealand teams but those in France/Italy/Portugal were less easy.I never established in my own mind just how many cars were built and certainly was never able to trace all the cars to the ends of their racing lives.It is fair to say that at least a hundred cars must be languishing in barns/garages and lock ups around the globe with many of the current owners unaware of what they actually have in their possession.To create a databank would be a brilliant thing but already through the reading of the threads we have created so far there are errors which if we are not careful can easily become 'fact'!!

**John Turner** · 23 Jul 2006, 08:59 (Ref:1662602)

Ok Ian, that's great. The more the merrier. If KA does a summary, as he has suggested, based on what has been posted on this thread, you and others with the knowledge can add and amend. This is surely destined for the chassis archive and it would be good if, eventually, we can add some pics (but don't forget copyright issues).

If, because of the longevity and success of these cars, we ultimately need to provide histories of the individual chassis on this thread we can head the particular post concerned with the chassis number. We could be in for the long haul here, but if you guys are up for it, please go for it!

ian beckett · 23 Jul 2006, 09:11 (Ref:1662610)

Hi John,without wishing to sound like a killjoy I do not think we have enough expertise to do the thing properly! I have tried dozens of times to follow up leads without success. A perfect example of the apparent apathy can be found when you try Google to get new info'.There are very few photos apart from the obvious Schnitzer cars and little on any other teams.Even Racing Sportscars which recently added a touring car section has only a limited amount of info at present.Hundreds of thousands of photos must have been taken at the time but where are they all now? Sadly it seems that the Great God F1 soaks up peoples enthusiasm! Try putting Mclaren Or Ferrari into Google and spot the difference!Nevertheless I am up for it particularly having spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in the past trying to increase my database! Ian.

**John Turner** · 23 Jul 2006, 11:17 (Ref:1662671)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian beckett

Hi John,without wishing to sound like a killjoy I do not think we have enough expertise to do the thing properly!

Probably true, but someone has to start somewhere, and you may surprise yourself, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian beckett

Nevertheless I am up for it particularly having spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in the past trying to increase my database! Ian.

There you go then! Nice one, Ian - share your info. and all your effort will not have been in vain! (Easy for me to say!).

**chunterer** · 23 Jul 2006, 11:46 (Ref:1662685)

Yep sound words John.

Ian, if you're willing to kick this idea off please go ahead.

As John has suggested, myself and others can add bits and bobs and we can keep builidng it as we go, then who knows - maybe we'll get a legend on from Munich or ex race team folk who can add their tuppence worth as well just to give it extra status!!

ian beckett · 23 Jul 2006, 13:50 (Ref:1662734)

Where is the chassis archive?Does it already exist?What format are we talking about? If one does not exist I suggest we need the following categories:chassis number/year and date of manufacture/builder/team/drivers//sponsors/race results/subsequent owners/an open category to allow anecdotes etc.I am afraid my computing skills are very limited and others will have to come up with this side of things!!Ian.

**John Turner** · 23 Jul 2006, 14:31 (Ref:1662752)

Ian, the Chassis History exists, and covers over a 100 different racing cars so far and is a sub forum of this forum. It sits above it on the thread title list of this forum! It's here:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77

There is no fixed format really, although if you browse through you will see that some of the threads carry summaries and ideally, this is what we want, for all, although it is more difficult with the greater volume production of certain models.

davyboy · 23 Jul 2006, 18:30 (Ref:1662841)

Well guys its off and running or so it seems. I had no idea about the chassis archive John, this looks great. The best thing to do for Ian and KA to post what they have and for people to 'wiki' it i.e. add/correct as they have/get information over the coming months and years.

**John Turner** · 23 Jul 2006, 22:54 (Ref:1663004)

davyboy, you're absolutely right; they need to be updated at regular intervals. I'm a bit perplexed that one or two of you were unaware of the Archive, since I posted the announcement on 17 March and left it 'stuck' at the top of this forum until quite recently. Makes me wonder how many other potential contributors haven't yet picked up on it:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80638

Tim 27 · 27 Jul 2006, 11:04 (Ref:1665807)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone Man

Another driver for us was the kiwi whose only win in F3 was at a wet Mallory Park.....Who remembers his name?

I think the driver you are refering to Stone Man is Rob Wilson. Rob won that race by beating the likes of Warwick, Piquet etc by being the only person to start on wets.
I have great memories of marshaling at Snetterton watching David Kennedy hurling the Grundig 635 through Coram sideways.

**chunterer** · 3 Aug 2006, 08:48 (Ref:1671878)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim 27

I think the driver you are refering to Stone Man is Rob Wilson. Rob won that race by beating the likes of Warwick, Piquet etc by being the only person to start on wets.
I have great memories of marshaling at Snetterton watching David Kennedy hurling the Grundig 635 through Coram sideways.

Rob's a leading race driver trainer these doors isn't he?

Had little idea he'd pedalled a 635 though, great!

Sub thread anyone? List of drivers who had rare/one off outings in 635's!!

Kennedy was quite spectacular and that may have been part frustration because the thing seemed to have an incurrable misfire from memory, and part the team telling him to put on a show as it wasn't able to battle the CC and Sytner cars?!

I do remember the Cheylesmore Grundig car having an audibly lower exahust note to the other Bimmers as well. Anyone know why this was?

Reminds me I found a slightly battered Bburago 1:24 scale diecast skeleton liveried Schnitzer car I built in about 1984 the other day. It's missing front and rear bumpers and a couple of lights, so it is certainly in period form!

Stone Man · 3 Aug 2006, 21:45 (Ref:1672605)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim 27

I think the driver you are refering to Stone Man is Rob Wilson. Rob won that race by beating the likes of Warwick, Piquet etc by being the only person to start on wets.
I have great memories of marshaling at Snetterton watching David Kennedy hurling the Grundig 635 through Coram sideways.

You've got it Tim. I think Rob Wilson drove the car (at Brands Hatch) only once and gave some solid imput into the team regarding development of the car.
I was at Mallory when he started on his midfield grid position, and gambled on the tyres and came out smelling of roses!

**John Turner** · 17 Aug 2006, 09:58 (Ref:1684852)

The latest (September) issue of BMW Car carries an article on this car. Others on this thread have already advised how Stuck pretty much destroyed the car at Thruxton. The accident occurred following a front hub failure, which was apparently a weakness in the early cars, as they were too thin! As has already been stated, the car was rebuilt (I can't imagine much of the original was used!) using new chassis no. 29. Although little is known of its subsequent racing history, it is thought to have raced until 1988 because it is known to have reversed into the banking at Thruxton in a BTCC race that year - anyone recall it? However, there is some more up to date history as follows:-

1995 (circa) - Acquired by Munich Legends for a customer
2000 (circa) - Acquired by Kevin Underwood
2001 - Kevin raced it in the Classic Thunder series; in fact I saw it at Lydden on 5 August, not realising it was an original (doh!), when it competed in both the Classic Thunder race and a round of the Pre '90 Touring car championship. I'm sure I saw it again at Brands that year, or maybe the year after!
2002 - 2005 - continued to be campaigned by Kevin Underwood
2005 (November) - sold to Peter Speis who bought it specifically to race in the Youngtimer 500kms at Nurburgring in 2006. Sadly, Peter died earlier this year before realising his dream. However, Jody Halse of Munich Legends drove it solo at the event and finished an excellent 6th overall (out of 217 starters!) and 1st in class.

The car is now fitted with E30 M3 group A hubs. The power output is just a little less than the 330bhp, which was the sort of figure the later cars were giving.

Great to see it still actively raced!

Now, guys are we any closer to this summary list? Given the amount of info. already here it is probably worth putting it into the chassis archive as is, where we can add the summary in due course. Any views?

VIVA GT · 17 Aug 2006, 13:20 (Ref:1685020)

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Turner

Although little is known of its subsequent racing history, it is thought to have raced until 1988 because it is known to have reversed into the banking at Thruxton in a BTCC race that year - anyone recall it?

Hi John, the 635 I remember having a huge shunt at Thruxton was James Weaver reversing heavily into the barriers before the chicane, completely flattening the back of the car. That would have been 1985 or 1986 though...

Good the see that this thread's not died yet, keep it going folks.

KA · 17 Aug 2006, 14:33 (Ref:1685088)

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Turner

Although little is known of its subsequent racing history, it is thought to have raced until 1988 because it is known to have reversed into the banking at Thruxton in a BTCC race that year - anyone recall it?

That sounds like Peter Buxtorf's car in 1988, which must have been the last 635 to appear in the BTCC. He definitely had a shunt at Thruxton which from memory fits that description- the car didn't appear again in the BTCC, although I think it was entered for the TT, but DNQ'd

**John Turner** · 17 Aug 2006, 15:38 (Ref:1685122)

Yes, sorry, the article says 'barrier' not 'banking'. Apparently the incident is supposed to have been recorded on video for posterity, so whether it appears on the BTCC review for that year, I don't know.

Grandslammer · 17 Aug 2006, 16:18 (Ref:1685174)

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Turner

Yes, sorry, the article says 'barrier' not 'banking'. Apparently the incident is supposed to have been recorded on video for posterity, so whether it appears on the BTCC review for that year, I don't know.

Indeed it does,just had a look.Third race of the season,Buxtorf lost control at the chicane and backed it into the barrier.

Alex E · 18 Aug 2006, 06:27 (Ref:1685684)

To fill in a few gaps in #29`s history. I bought the car, on behalf of Munich Legends, in around 1995/6 from Nigel Smith (ex BtCC privateer with a Cavalier...) . And then Kevin bought it.
It was the car that Boxtorf crashed at Thruxton in 1988. The Stuck crash was caused by front hub failure, the hub flange was too thin and fractured. These were changed for more robust type & ended the problem.

Alex

Jesper OH · 18 Aug 2006, 20:16 (Ref:1686262)

Dane Peter Elgaard took over one of the 1983 Juma Racing/Bastos 635's for the 1984 season. The plan was for an ETCC campaign, but the costs v. results from the early Monza/Vallelunge rounds forced a change of direction. Instead he won the national Danish title as well as the Nordic title that year. For '85 he relocated his efforts to the German DPM (future DTM). He finished as best 635 on a few occasions and ultimately ended the year just outside the top-10 in points. After that he sold the car to Swede Jan Brunstedt.
No other 635 appeared in Denmark during the group A period (not in group A racing, that is) as far as I know.

Strictly speaking the 635CSi was never homologated as a group N car, but I wouln'dt be surprised that national production saloon car series adopted the fine coupe anyway - for a long time I have wishioned the 635 as the ultimately looking NASCAR.

Jesper

**John Turner** · 28 Aug 2006, 11:48 (Ref:1694753)

I have sent a complete copy of this thread to the Chassis History Archive although I may do some pruning and editing at a later date. It's here:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87738

Please post your summaries or 'factual' posts about these cars on the above thread. General discussion about these cars should be kept here. I am now 'unsticking this thread.

ian beckett · 2 Oct 2006, 13:11 (Ref:1725296)

Hello,thanks to another thread,I have discovered the following site ...www.youtube.com .Use the box in the top right hand corner like you would searching on Google and you may be surprised what you can find!! The quality may not be brilliant but I can live with that!! Type in ETC and you will find a 10 minute report on the '83 Nurburgring race full of those wonderful 635's.

**chunterer** · 2 Oct 2006, 13:22 (Ref:1725299)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian beckett

Hello,thanks to another thread,I have discovered the following site ...www.youtube.com .Use the box in the top right hand corner like you would searching on Google and you may be surprised what you can find!! The quality may not be brilliant but I can live with that!! Type in ETC and you will find a 10 minute report on the '83 Nurburgring race full of those wonderful 635's.

Good referral. Is this the same footage that gfm has referred to in his separate thread?

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