HTP, FIA, EDA? Papers, what are they

[Tim Falce]

Can someone explain what these terms and any others regarding papers for historic race cars mean and what type of cars and years are eligible for each?

This stems from one or two of the treads regarding bent cars, straight cars and any other cars I keep seeing pop up, plus my mate runs a fairly modern BMW in so called historic racing (Al Weyman's lot) and I wondered how this and many other modern cars are eligible.

[terence]

Hi Tim,HTPs replace the original FIA papers in as much as there's one page missing from the original FIA version. The idea,originally intended to get all pre 65 cars onto a data base and therefore,stop any cloning of existing car's

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Hi Tim,HTPs replace the original FIA papers in as much as there's one page missing from the original FIA version. The idea,originally intended to get all pre 65 cars onto a data base and therefore,stop any cloning of existing car's

so do they not apply to post-1965 cars then?

[terence]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

so do they not apply to post-1965 cars then?

Sorry David,wasn't very clear,was it!

[john ruston]

HTP serves for all Historics and beyond 66.Presumably up to 90 but without any end date as this changes year on year.

[Al Weyman]

In our 'lot' we are IMHO a whole lot more sensible and the car does not have to be an 'original' at all. In other words if you wanted to race a Lotus Cortina you can simply use a 2 door 1300 base model shell and stick the required componetry in the thing and race it as an LC as I am sure is happening in the other more
'prestigious' championships anyhow but possibly in a more clandestine way.

There is a requirement that either the car model and/or component had to have had 5000 made in any one year or have been homologated as such but even that at the committee's discretion can be altered for example the inclusion of some Jaguar models. Its called flexibility but NOT a free for all and I think it works also some no longer available components like C/R Avenger gearboxes are allowed to be substitured with a Ford unit etc etc.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

In our 'lot' we are IMHO a whole lot more sensible and the car does not have to be an 'original' at all. In other words if you wanted to race a Lotus Cortina you can simply use a 2 door 1300 base model shell and stick the required componetry in the thing and race it as an LC as I am sure is happening in the other more
'prestigious' championships anyhow but possibly in a more clandestine way.

There is a requirement that either the car model and/or component had to have had 5000 made in any one year or have been homologated as such but even that at the committee's discretion can be altered for example the inclusion of some Jaguar models. Its called flexibility but NOT a free for all and I think it works also some no longer available components like C/R Avenger gearboxes are allowed to be substitured with a Ford unit etc etc.

Just the same as the FIA regulations have been since about 2000 with regard to the cars and with regard to the parts the same except the changes have to be approved by FIA Historic Motor Sport commission.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

In our 'lot' we are IMHO a whole lot more sensible and the car does not have to be an 'original' at all. In other words if you wanted to race a Lotus Cortina you can simply use a 2 door 1300 base model shell and stick the required componetry in the thing and race it as an LC as I am sure is happening in the other more
'prestigious' championships anyhow but possibly in a more clandestine way.

There is a requirement that either the car model and/or component had to have had 5000 made in any one year or have been homologated as such but even that at the committee's discretion can be altered for example the inclusion of some Jaguar models. Its called flexibility but NOT a free for all and I think it works also some no longer available components like C/R Avenger gearboxes are allowed to be substitured with a Ford unit etc etc.

I was not really asking about series such as the CTCRC or CSCC that allow a car from a certain period to race that don't have FIA or whatever papers. I was asking about cars with specific papers that race with series such as the Masters or Equipe GTS and why is the Spa Six Hours restricted to pre 65 cars, what's with the magic date?

[terence]

Six hr is 65 Tim,but the Eau Rouge Trophy is I believe 72.65 is period F but the six hr is upto that date.

[john ruston]

Now I have a question for Mr Hall

Was about to buy a 50's Sports Car last month when I found it was not acceptable for HTP's.
The car was of a very well known manufacturer but it was the one with a different engine than the others manufactured.
It raced in California but not aware of race history in Europe.
Was told that papers could not be issued for car as no international race history.
Car was one covered and driven by Jenks in period.
No argument its real but what other parameters are used for agreeing to the papers.
Didn't buy the car because of the situation ,assume I could change motor to same as others in series but that would spoil the history of this actual car.Thought the whole idea was to preserve history not mess it up?
Is it possible to take a pragmatic view.

[terence]

Bit like a Griff then?

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Now I have a question for Mr Hall

Was about to buy a 50's Sports Car last month when I found it was not acceptable for HTP's.
The car was of a very well known manufacturer but it was the one with a different engine than the others manufactured.
It raced in California but not aware of race history in Europe.
Was told that papers could not be issued for car as no international race history.
Car was one covered and driven by Jenks in period.
No argument its real but what other parameters are used for agreeing to the papers.
Didn't buy the car because of the situation ,assume I could change motor to same as others in series but that would spoil the history of this actual car.Thought the whole idea was to preserve history not mess it up?
Is it possible to take a pragmatic view.

Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international competition history complying with the International rules of the period.


I quote from the good book.
Sadly the concept of pragmatism within the echelons of authority at FIA is entirely alien. In ''The good old days'' it was possible to take a view, but nowadays the whole is driven by a different agenda.
My strictly personal view is that an overview of good sense should prevail but sadly.....

[L-G Sjöberg]

[QUOTE=Jeremy Hall;2567108]Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international competition history complying with the International rules of the period.


QUOTE]

My mother tongue is not English so maybe I misunderstand the meaning of EITHER, the comma, and OR in the quote above, but the way I read it, the requirement for international competition history does not apply to [U]original competition cars, i.e if the car in question had an odd engine originally, than it should be eligible for an HTP, or...

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by L-G Sjöberg

My mother tongue is not English so maybe I misunderstand the meaning of EITHER, the comma, and OR in the quote above, but the way I read it, the requirement for international competition history does not apply to [U]original competition cars, i.e if the car in question had an odd engine originally, than it should be eligible for an HTP, or...

I suspect your understanding of English punctuation is better than many Brits! then again it may be a case of 'lost in translation from French' which is the usual excuse

[esper]

Gladly enough everything was perfect in the past. the past of honnest sixty motorracing. We had manufactureres big or small, who didnt want to rule history on bending homologations and numbers of cars produced. Ferrari
, Aston Martin, Porsche . Ford, those honnest players of the past real racing

[john ruston]

This was a real steel car rather than one of those plastic things!
Whats the problem with Griff

[terence]

According to Mike Mooney,there is no international comp history,he should know!

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by terence bower

According to Mike Mooney,there is no international comp history,he should know!

Terry I wish you would stop re-iterating myths like this. I have several emails from Mike Mooney copied to a number of interested parties which clearly demonstrate his view that Griffiths had international race history in period.

The issue has been not whether they competed but specification - in particular what width rear and what bonnet bulges and air intakes they had. There are very few photos of the cars taken at the events in which they competed, to confirm the position.

Herewith an edited extract from a note from one of our UK FIA scrutineers which is very clear:

The Grantura Engineering Ltd – TVR Griffith 200 was homologated on 1st August 1965 – Homologation recognition number 206.

Prior to this date, several TVR Griffith cars competed in Sports car events, including P. Simpson in the AMOC Silverstone International Martini Trophy on 24th July 1965. Cars competing prior to the date of homologation would have been classified as a Group 4 Sports car.

Four cars are believed to have competed Internationally after the date of homologation.

The first was on the 12th September 1965 with a Griffith driven by USA drivers D. Heinz and Tom Harmar in a round of the USSRC at Road America. This series included classes for Prototype cars and GTs. Any International status of this event is unclear but I would expect this race was not running to FIA Appendix J regulations and is therefore immaterial for our purposes.

The second known participation was of EHM Paul at Brands Hatch in the Redex Trophy race on 30th August 1965. This support race to the Guards Trophy was listed as a race for cars complying with Appendix J Group 3 regulations. However, the Redex Trophy race was not listed in the Official programme as being an International event and it has yet to be confirmed if this actual race was run under a National or International status permit.The second TVR No;106 on the entry list is believed to have non-started.If the Redex Trophy race at this meeting can be confirmed as being of International Status, Option 2 for any HTP applicant would be to replicate this actual car and the car would be classified as Period F - GTS.

The third and fourth known participations were at Aspern in Austria on 17th October 1965. The first of these two was driven by well known Austrian rally driver; Otto Karger. The second entrant at Aspern was P. Simpson whose car was road registered; FDU 500C. The TVR Club newsletter dated December 1965 had a race report by P. Simpson who drove the car on the road from Birmingham to and from Austria for the race. Option three therefore would be to Apply for an HTP with a standard shaped car and the car would again be classified as Period F - GTS.

Gerry Marshall also drove this works prepared car MMT 7C at the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting on 17th September 1966 (period G). Providing evidence can be found to confirm this support race at Oulton Park was of International status, option four would therefore be for an HTP applicant to apply for a similarly modified car in Period G - GTS

So to answer Tim's question as far as HTP is concerned. A car must be built to the specification in its FIA homologation papers issued in period. In order to be accepted by a scrutineer, a car must both comply and have run in an international FIA sanctioned event in period.

I think periods are:

FIA Period E 1/1/47 to 31/12/61
FIA Period F 1/1/62 to 31/12/65
FIA Period G 1/1/66 to 31/12/71
FIA Period H 1/1/72 to 31/12/76

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

So to answer Tim's question as far as HTP is concerned. A car must be built to the specification in its FIA homologation papers issued in period. In order to be accepted by a scrutineer, a car must both comply and have run in an international FIA sanctioned event in period.

I think periods are:

FIA Period E 1/1/47 to 31/12/61
FIA Period F 1/1/62 to 31/12/65
FIA Period G 1/1/66 to 31/12/71
FIA Period H 1/1/72 to 31/12/76

Many thanks for that Richard.

[terence]

[QUOTE=FISCracer;2568685]Terry I wish you would stop re-iterating myths like this. I have several emails from Mike Mooney copied to a number of interested parties which clearly demonstrate his view that Griffiths had international race history in period.


Four cars are believed to have competed Internationally after the date of homologation.

Key word is Believed, When I get the time I'll forward the mail I got from Mike.Perhaps that will dispell the 'myth'.

[john ruston]

Thanks Jeremy.Can I assume that the events run in California were not international?
The rules state that if I change motor I would get HTP's which distracts from its History ,amazing!

How do they judge Pre War cars?By the same rules and could Brooklands be considered international?

Just thinking out loud.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Thanks Jeremy.Can I assume that the events run in California were not international?
The rules state that if I change motor I would get HTP's which distracts from its History ,amazing!

How do they judge Pre War cars?By the same rules and could Brooklands be considered international?

Just thinking out loud.

No John you can't assume that California races were not International.You have to do what I do, start finding out.Check Motor Sport annual results list, they list all the major International results, go to the copies which you must have on period US magazines and check the results-were there foreign drivers taking part, if so it may have been International.
Check the listings in old MSA Blue books for the calendars of the period to see whether the event was listed.
Its all about specification in International events-not some old race spec. I am sure the VSCC would welcome you, they run old club races, the FIA -or its licencees run old International races.Why is that so difficult?
Pre war is very simple look a the entry list it usuaaly solves the question.
All this takes work , time and commitment I get fed up with people who fail to get this.

[Peter Mallett]

As I understand it, it is intended to cover cars built from new shells but to the specification of the original competition version. In other words a Mk1 Capri shell could be built into a RS2300/2600 or even a 3500 but it must be built to exactly the same spec as the original competition version.

[L-G Sjöberg]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

As I understand it, it is intended to cover cars built from new shells but to the specification of the original competition version. In other words a Mk1 Capri shell could be built into a RS2300/2600 or even a 3500 but it must be built to exactly the same spec as the original competition version.

That is the way I understand it, too. If it is an original competition car with a genuine history, than the requirement for participation in an international race should not apply. Is there anyone around with an understanding of how FIA thinks, who could clarify this?

If I remember correctly, one FIA inspector managed to block the issuance of an HTP for a Formula Junior a number of years ago, since the owner could not prove that his car (a one-off) had participated in a race listed in the international calender in period. He actually showed that it had participated in an international race (Djurgårdsloppet in Helsinki) but was still denied the papers, since he could not prove that the race was actually listed as international even though there were lots of non-Finnish participants. To me it sounded like some personal vendetta, but maybe it was according to the FIA rules

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by L-G Sjöberg

That is the way I understand it, too. If it is an original competition car with a genuine history, than the requirement for participation in an international race should not apply. Is there anyone around with an understanding of how FIA thinks, who could clarify this?

If I remember correctly, one FIA inspector managed to block the issuance of an HTP for a Formula Junior a number of years ago, since the owner could not prove that his car (a one-off) had participated in a race listed in the international calender in period. He actually showed that it had participated in an international race (Djurgårdsloppet in Helsinki) but was still denied the papers, since he could not prove that the race was actually listed as international even though there were lots of non-Finnish participants. To me it sounded like some personal vendetta, but maybe it was according to the FIA rules

What I've never understood is why it is OK to take a production car that has never been on a circuit in its life and to modify that into a historic race car.
Whereas a car that really did race in period cannot be raced as a historic race car if its owner failed to take part in an international race at the time.

I sort of understand that international races were FIA licenced and national ones weren't, but that doesn't change history.