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Old 31 Aug 2008, 22:53 (Ref:2279054)   #1
Aslak Vind
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S2000 replaced by tubechassis V8´s ?

Hey guys,

in DK we have one of Europes best S2000 championships, the Danish Touringcar Championship. But it seems that the greediness of the organizers and promoters has reached a new high.

They plan to replace the S2000 cars, which can be bought of the shelve from numerous manufacturers across Europe, with an one make Pratt + Miller tubular chassis V8 car, with silhouette bodies.

I am not aware of one single series in Europe which has any kind of success with this concept, outside the DTM series. The V8 Star series suffered a grim death, and I am not aware of any S2000 brand, who thinks replacing the S2000 cars with a noname chassis is viable.

Thoughts?
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Old 31 Aug 2008, 23:33 (Ref:2279068)   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslak Vind
I am not aware of one single series in Europe which has any kind of success with this concept, outside the DTM series. The V8 Star series suffered a grim death, and I am not aware of any S2000 brand, who thinks replacing the S2000 cars with a noname chassis is viable.

Thoughts?
Well here in the UK series such as the ISC, Touring1, and SCV8 were a great success. Some of them even built a prototype and held a race.
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Old 31 Aug 2008, 23:46 (Ref:2279072)   #3
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My thought is... go to Stockholm, organize a forum with STCC BoD and team bosses, series backers... and try to get the conclusion. The conclusion would be, let's create the best European S2000 league, together, let us beat WTCC with our resources, with our teams and drivers, because some of our teams are well backed, very professional with great drivers.... and the audience and TV is there to back us up.
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Old 31 Aug 2008, 23:50 (Ref:2279074)   #4
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Originally Posted by Aslak Vind
Hey guys,

in DK we have one of Europes best S2000 championships, the Danish Touringcar Championship. But it seems that the greediness of the organizers and promoters has reached a new high.

Thoughts?
What where they high on? Crack by the sounds of it - this idea will never work as there are already enough (or possibly too many) touring car series, and outside of Germany there is little or no appetite for V8 cars, be it with fans or more crucially manufacturers.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 00:04 (Ref:2279078)   #5
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Promotor Peter Elgaard and Jan Magnussen, who is representing the teams as he partly owns Alternative Engineering (Former Peugeot Sport), visited Sunday with P+M to see their offering concerning tubularchassis cars. Obviously the target is costcutting, but I cant see the benefit or payoff..

Alex_K and duke_toaster: We agree, in DK although small country we have an extremely strong S2000 championship. And if we joined forces with STCC, I am sure that we with the manufacturer support could prove them wrong. We have cars with factory support from BMW, SEAT, Honda, Chevrolet and Volvo.

Neither of them could possibly have any interest in scrapping their S2000 cars and marketing efforts of their streetcars, in favour of some OEM truck..

In my book, it is murder..!

Last edited by Aslak Vind; 1 Sep 2008 at 00:06.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 01:00 (Ref:2279089)   #6
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Hmm, P&M tubeframe-chassis and V8. Looks like P&M are recycling their GXP.R-concept from Rolex GT. Although those are indeed a bit pricier than S2000 cars with ~300k USD when new. Maybe a simplified version of those?

Belgium has a modestly successfull silouette-class as well in the BTCS. I think they get around 7-8 cars in their headlining S1-class. Mostly cars from former French Supertourisme and Renault Megane Trophy there.
With Mags being a Corvette-factory driver, it's no surprise that they choose P&M.

Last edited by Speed-King; 1 Sep 2008 at 01:03.
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Old 2 Sep 2008, 19:29 (Ref:2280309)   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslak Vind
Promotor Peter Elgaard and Jan Magnussen, who is representing the teams as he partly owns Alternative Engineering (Former Peugeot Sport), visited Sunday with P+M to see their offering concerning tubularchassis cars. Obviously the target is costcutting, but I cant see the benefit or payoff..
Jan Magnussen is also factory driver of the P+M Corvette. Is he the right man to represent the teams?
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Old 2 Sep 2008, 19:59 (Ref:2280336)   #8
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Originally Posted by FIRE
Jan Magnussen is also factory driver of the P+M Corvette. Is he the right man to represent the teams?
To be honest, I think Jan is ONLY acting as a liason, and not a representative of the teams. Basically it is 100% up to the promoter to bargain a deal through, which he believes in and see as commercially viable. Then afterwards the promoter needs to sell the idea on to the teams in question.

But eitherway, I find it strange as well. No matter how you cut the cake, Jan has a doublerole.

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Old 1 Sep 2008, 02:12 (Ref:2279104)   #9
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This idea has also been floated in Australia for the V8 Supercars to cut costs.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 02:15 (Ref:2279105)   #10
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I used to enjoy Supertouring a bit and I've tried to get into S2000 and I just can't get interested. I've watched the STCC, WTCC and BTCC and I really do try to follow it and get interested but the cars are just too slow and unspectacular. I wouldn't make a trip to Europe to see a S2000 race but I would fly to Aus or NZ for V8SC and NZV8's.

Perhaps Magnusson and friends can see the writing on the wall. I don't think they're being "greedy" just that as racing drivers you want a challenge and crowds prefer real race cars.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 12:50 (Ref:2279361)   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainstar
I used to enjoy Supertouring a bit and I've tried to get into S2000 and I just can't get interested. I've watched the STCC, WTCC and BTCC and I really do try to follow it and get interested but the cars are just too slow and unspectacular.

Exactly what I think!
Although I don´t think that V8 powered tubeframe cars are the answer, I would prefer 1.8 - 2.0 liter turbos with, and this is the most important part, more power to grip than S2000. Maybe something like 350 hk, low downforce and some spec parts in the chassis to keep costs down.

I don´t think it would cost more than todays S2000, it would still be interesting for manufacturers and it would be more spectacular for the fans.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 13:16 (Ref:2279373)   #12
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If Denmark really moves away from S2000, the only series left with that ruleset will be Great Britain, Sweden and the World Championship. To an lesser extend ADAC-Procar, but they race to the S2000-rules from 2005, so their importance for the S2000-world is really neglegible.
I guess that's bad news for the whole 2litre-touring community as it further reduces the possibilities to sell and race these cars.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 08:29 (Ref:2279198)   #13
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I'm wondering how many DTC-cars are private, and how many are backed by a manufacturer/importer. If most are, i can't see this working. When Aslak is right when he says that no manufacturer is interested in a tube-framed racecar with it's name on it. If however the field is mainly made up of privateers, who can still race for the Danisch title, at a lower cost with faster cars, then the chances are higher. However, they still forego the opportunity to race in other series that might be interesting for them (STCC/WTCC/Procar) or sell the cars to drivers in other championships.

Having said that, I do like S2000-cars, and I like the idea of standard tubecars less, so I am against.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 08:57 (Ref:2279218)   #14
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Thank you for your thoughts, keep them coming.

Well the top of the DTC is manufacturer supported, while the rest is competing in the DTC Cup. That mainly is divided, whether or not the driver is a pro or privateer.

So in theory I guess that the privateers could see it as a possibility. But as werner suggests, they will only be able to compete in Danish series. Much like the Danish Endurance Series, where the Danish sportscar Aquila SR-1 competes. it is made by modular chassis, so it is unable to compete anywhere else - and it has been a less than brilliant succes.

Last edited by Aslak Vind; 1 Sep 2008 at 09:04.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 09:19 (Ref:2279231)   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslak Vind
Thoughts?
If they're planning that they are utterly stupid and they are murdering the sport. Touringcar racing is all about cars based on streetcars, not tubeframed V8's. Also the choice for V8's is a weird and dumb one: in a time where everybody is talking about the environment it would be much wiser to use a V6, throw in some ethanol and present it as a green concept to attract more sponsors and media attention.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 22:03 (Ref:2279769)   #16
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Originally Posted by Bramzel
If they're planning that they are utterly stupid and they are murdering the sport. Touringcar racing is all about cars based on streetcars, not tubeframed V8's. Also the choice for V8's is a weird and dumb one: in a time where everybody is talking about the environment it would be much wiser to use a V6, throw in some ethanol and present it as a green concept to attract more sponsors and media attention.
So far I have yet to hear one fan busting loose to get to the race track because the race cars are running ethanol or diesel. Ultimately I believe people go to be entertained, not to save the environment. Nor do I think commercial sponsors really care much if a alternative fuel is used. If it's a big deal you can always run V8's on E85.

S2000 is okay, but I think everyone is getting bored with it. Plus it's not a big draw for crowds and manufacturers have been lukewarm about it. I've heard BMW may pull out of the WTCC and Alfa is already long gone.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 22:11 (Ref:2279780)   #17
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Originally Posted by mountainstar
So far I have yet to hear one fan busting loose to get to the race track because the race cars are running ethanol or diesel. Ultimately I believe people go to be entertained, not to save the environment. Nor do I think commercial sponsors really care much if a alternative fuel is used. If it's a big deal you can always run V8's on E85.

S2000 is okay, but I think everyone is getting bored with it. Plus it's not a big draw for crowds and manufacturers have been lukewarm about it. I've heard BMW may pull out of the WTCC and Alfa is already long gone.
It's not that we want to go and see these green race cars, but manufacturers such as Volvo like having this environmantal connaction to their brand. therefore, it could attrack more manufacturers, or sponsors such as cartridge world, which is better for us fans.

True, manufacturers have not really embraced S2000 as we all hoped, but if these new WTCC reg's come in, and we get stability in that championship, maybe more will join.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 22:42 (Ref:2279797)   #18
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It's not that we want to go and see these green race cars, but manufacturers such as Volvo like having this environmantal connaction to their brand. therefore, it could attrack more manufacturers, or sponsors such as cartridge world, which is better for us fans.

True, manufacturers have not really embraced S2000 as we all hoped, but if these new WTCC reg's come in, and we get stability in that championship, maybe more will join.
Personally I think the whole "green fad" is going away. If it is an issue though, E85 ethanol works just fine.
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Old 1 Sep 2008, 23:00 (Ref:2279807)   #19
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Personally I think the whole "green fad" is going away.
Don't think so. I won't get into a(nother) global warming debate here, but I guess that at any race event with a somewhat decent crowd, the spectators' journeys to the track produce several times more CO2 than the actual racing. So in the end there's no big difference between a race run on conventional fuel and one run on ethanol, or a professional football game or a rock concert, for that matter.
Of course manufacturers and other powers that be might push for a greener image for racing, but at least to me that doesn't amount to a moral obligation to Green Racing.
I have absolutely no problem with going green, but not if the sport on track is the victim. If it can be done without unreasonable additional costs I'm all for it.

Quote:
If it is an issue though, E85 ethanol works just fine.
Agreed. Especially with Pratt&Millers knowledge of "Green Racing" from the Corvette-programm, running the cars on E85 should be a piece of cake.

Maybe we should try to get away from the question of the morality of V8s and get back to the issue at hand - namely the possibility of a Danish V8 Silhouette-series and the possible move away from S2000.
I can easily see this truning into another of those terrible global warming discussions, and I'd rather not go through that again.
The question what implications this will have on the Danish and European racing scene is interesting enough!

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Old 2 Sep 2008, 10:25 (Ref:2279987)   #20
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Originally Posted by mountainstar
S2000 is okay, but I think everyone is getting bored with it. Plus it's not a big draw for crowds and manufacturers have been lukewarm about it. I've heard BMW may pull out of the WTCC and Alfa is already long gone.
As long as BMW can sell S2000-cars to customer-racers all over Europe in the way they can, they won't quit WTCC. The WTCC-programme might come at a cost, but they make good money on the customer-program.
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Old 2 Sep 2008, 14:56 (Ref:2280122)   #21
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The WTCC-programme might come at a cost, but they make good money on the customer-program.
No they don't. It takes a lot of investments to keep the cars competative, the customer program is basically financing the factory teams. They're definitely not making huge profits on their customer program.
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Old 2 Sep 2008, 15:17 (Ref:2280131)   #22
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Originally Posted by werner
As long as BMW can sell S2000-cars to customer-racers all over Europe in the way they can, they won't quit WTCC. The WTCC-programme might come at a cost, but they make good money on the customer-program.
I hear they might want to quit WTCC in favor of GT2 of which they are running in the ALMS next year.
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Old 2 Sep 2008, 18:13 (Ref:2280244)   #23
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I hear they might want to quit WTCC in favor of GT2 of which they are running in the ALMS next year.
The ALMS programme is controlled and funded by BMW North America, the WTCC programme from Munich I believe. So I doubt entering the ALMS will affect their involvement in touring cars, except maybe for a few drivers crossing over.
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Old 2 Sep 2008, 18:51 (Ref:2280279)   #24
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Originally Posted by Speed-King
From the "Benelux-Touringcar-Championship"-Thread:
But I don't think S2000 was a serious option. IMO it's a shame they haven't chosen Superstars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainstar
S2000 is okay, but I think everyone is getting bored with it.
Getting bored with S2000? Not me. BTCC and WTCC are delivering still great racing.


This Danish proposal sounds like Stock Car Brasil: Single make chassis and single make V8 engine.




Currently Chevrolet, Peugeot and Mitsubishi are racing in this series. More about this series:I don't know if this works in Europe. Manufacturers didn't allow to use their brands in V8Stars. And V8 engines? I think a 2L NA or 2L turbo is more logical.

Last edited by FIRE; 2 Sep 2008 at 18:54.
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Old 2 Sep 2008, 21:12 (Ref:2280422)   #25
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Originally Posted by FIRE
Getting bored with S2000? Not me. BTCC and WTCC are delivering still great racing.
I watch the BTCC, WTCC and the STCC and still can't get into it. I'd rather watch NZv8's or V8 Supercars or the DTM.
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