[Driver] Rubens is a perenial number 2...

[scoobiesnoop]

I was thinking while watching Rubens trudge back to the pit during the last moments of the Malaysian GP, that he has always been a number 2. It confuses me because he IS a very fast driver and he has all the ability to win. He ran faster than the great Mike Shoemaker on many occasions yet it always seems that he gets the rough end of the stick. There were many times at Ferrari when he could and probably should have won if not for 'team orders'. Now at Brawn (and to a point at Honda although that was more of a test of character than anything else) he has been given a very good car yet he still seems to be playing second fiddle. Is it just 'not his time' right now and all will come good later in the season or is he really just a second rate driver?? Is it that Jenson really is on a par with Lewis or Massa or Raikkonen or Alonso, but hasn't had the equipment to show his potential - Now he has and it shows his hunger for wins with great racing that leaves Rubens in the shade?? I know Rubens can win and I want him to succeed but will he or is he just a perenial number 2?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by scoobiesnoop

He ran faster than the great Mike Shoemaker on many occasions

Some occasions. You are right in what you say, but 90% of the time Schumacher just plain beat Rubens.

In Australia he was a little unlucky, raced a little scrappily, but also quite well at different points, and ultimately was a little lucky to get second.
In Malaysia he had his penalty, but wasn't on Jenson's pace despite getting close on the first lap.

Button is on a high, Rubens should be feeling great about his car and thinking he was very lucky to have such a car. I suspect that Button winning has (not in a nasty way and I'm sure he is happy for Jenson) just taken the edge of that.

[Dutton]

Two intials points: Rubens has not always been a number two by any stretch of the imagination (ignore this if you were being figurative); believe it or not, Michael just simply beat Rubens the vast majority of the time because was actually really, really, really good at his job.

Also, sometimes Michael sat back. Hungary 2002 he cruised behind Rubens all the way, for instance, whilst neither of them pushed at all. Rubens was left alone to win Nurb because the whole world would've just exploded if they didn't. Monza '02 Michael mysteriously dropped pace for a coincidentally perfect number of laps, which just so happened to have Rubens come out just ahead of him. And so on. I'm citing 2002 because it was Austria that year which caused everyone to flip out to such an insane degree.

I am not in anyway debating that Rubens was the number two and not the driver Ferrari had in mind for winning the championship, but I am saying that sometimes things went in his favour too. There were other times when Rubens was moved out of the way because he was miles behind in points and had been gubbed my Michael all year prior to that point. Sometimes it was just the logical decision that any team would've made.

Now, as for 2009, I think it is that Jenson excels when he has a good car that really works for him. We are seeing his driving from 2004 happening in a better car. Whilst Rubens is a thoroughly decent driver, I just don't think he is as good as Jenson.

I wouldn't put Button in the same tier as the Alonso's and Hamilton's of this world, but he is amply good enough to win a championship in a good car. Rubens, meanwhile, I wouldn't be sure about: he would, imo, need a dominant car and a team-mate not as good as he is.

I imagine Rubens will have his days this year, but I doubt he'll give Jenson a huge challenge overall.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by scoobiesnoop

Is it that Jenson really is on a par with Lewis or Massa or Raikkonen or Alonso, but hasn't had the equipment to show his potential - Now he has and it shows his hunger for wins with great racing that leaves Rubens in the shade??

Very good first question. I believe the answer is yes, he is on a par. He hasn't had the equipment, but when given a good car, look what he does with it. You can say for certain that Hamilton, Raikkonen, Alonso etc were great when given great cars...and Jenson is doing the same. Ferrari produced one of the most dominant cars in F1 history in 2004, winning 15 of 17 races, and look who finished 'best of the rest' by a huge margin in 3rd overall, it was Jenson. He came into F1 very inexperienced, but has beaten Trulli, Villeneuve, Sato and Barrichello; all soundly. He has done little to suggest he is anything short of very good. Rubens has been left in the shade alongside Button for 2 of his 3 years alongside him (in 2007 he scored NO points).

That said, its too early in the season to say that Rubens will always be out-paced by Button, it will be intriguing to find out who comes up out on top! Both are great. Now we will see who is greater I guess.

[stump_1100]

I was going to say no, if you put any F1 driver in a good car (front running car) then they would demonstrate their skills but having thought about it I think there are a few that will never be that "number one" driver. Rubens is probably one of them, he is a good driver and probably a very nice bloke but that's maybe why he will always be seen as second fiddle.

I reckon Kimi will be the same unless they get rid of that fridge with the icecream and coke in it!!

[mac]

I don't think Rubens is Number 2 at Brawn. In his history alongside Button at Honda, they have always been more or less on the same pace. He's just had a few dramas so far - if he'd got to the first turn first in Melbourne, we might not be having this discussion.

He'll find his stride...

[Knowlesy]

He has been well behind Button when the car has been OK. I kind of expected him to do better this year all the same.

Although I see Brawn has brought over some of his old Ferrari gearboxes.

He'll get wins but ultimately finish well behind Jenson.

[chunterer]

He hasn't had the rub of the green yet this year has he?

The Ferrari days are well documented, well mostly, as his form whilst at Maranello was probably a combination of things really, 1/ a quicker teammate, 2/ his struggle largely to accept what Schumacher's contract entitled him to over him.

In light of what didn't happen for him there maybe he now wishes he drove for someone else after Stewart instead?

He has his days though and is still very much likely to have some of them this season.

[Spudy]

Does anyone think that maybe Senna would have been a better bet than Rubens?

I see why they went for experience but so far I don't think Rubens has been showing it especially with the accidents in Australia and what turned out to be a lucky 2nd place.

I'm sure he'll get better and have some good results in that car but do you think we'll be seeing him next year? I just think its time for some fresh blood. Rubens is good no-one disputes that but I feel he's had his time its time for someone fresh.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by scoobiesnoop

Is it just 'not his time' right now and all will come good later in the season or is he really just a second rate driver?? Is it that Jenson really is on a par with Lewis or Massa or Raikkonen or Alonso, but hasn't had the equipment to show his potential - Now he has and it shows his hunger for wins with great racing that leaves Rubens in the shade?? I know Rubens can win and I want him to succeed but will he or is he just a perenial number 2?

I don't think that Button is up there with the likes of Alonso - I think the best drivers can wrestle a poor car to a position it doesn't deserve to be in, and Alonso undoubtedly has the ability to do that. When Button is in a bad car he's virtually invisible, as we've seen over the past couple of seasons. But when he's in a good car, he's very good, and very few drivers can match him - including Barrichello. Barrichello has had a bit of bad luck so far, but I think even with a healthy car he's not as quick as Button. He probably has the ability to get more out of the car when it's not very good, as he did last year, but when it's a winning car he can't match Button.

Originally Posted by Spudy

Does anyone think that maybe Senna would have been a better bet than Rubens?

Not with the situation that Brawn were in before the season started - they needed an old hand who could get into the car with very little testing and drive it quickly, which Barrichello has by and large done. Senna may prove to be very capable in F1, but it would have been too much of a gamble this year.

[Knowlesy]

Would Senna have been a better bet? I assume we are talking Bruno Senna? I'm inclined to say a big fat no to that. Not enough experience.

He could have done an OK job, but equally he could have done a Piquet (Jr, not dad).

[chunterer]

I'd go along with Knowlesy on that one.

Whilst i'd like to see Bruno get a drive one day (hope it's not too late) dropping him in amongst the Brawn situation pre season would have been too much for him. The guy would have needed loads of mileage even in a top car.

Ross suspected but couldn't know for sure how good the new car would be. Based on the situation Brawn were in and the rush to get ready in time Rubens was the best choice available to help knit things together with Jense and the rest of the team.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by chunterer

2/ his struggle largely to accept what Schumacher's contract entitled him to over him.

I've never bought this. There is no need at all for the team to have anything specific in Michael's contract.

Michael's contract, just like Rubens', would have a bit about obeying team-orders. I fail to see why they would need anything different. It is how the team-orders are employed which determines whether a driver is a No.2 or not, not any unnecessarily constricting contract stuff.

Think of the times when Michael has finished behind his Ferrari team-mates. Those scenarios would represent breach of contract if Michael had it contractually bound that he finishes ahead.

Sure, it could be argued that it was just that Michael was OK with it and this is why it happened that way (therefore, wasn't an issue being breach of contract). In which case it highlights just exactly why there is no need for different contracts: put Michael and his team-mate on the same contract, then they just apply the orders and preferences in Michael's favour.

Just to be clear, although I think it is, I am in no way at all disputing that Michael was blatantly Ferrari's No.1 driver.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

He probably has the ability to get more out of the car when it's not very good, as he did last year, but when it's a winning car he can't match Button.

The 2007 Honda was one of the worst cars in the history of F1 and Button came out on top.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I wouldn't put Button in the same tier as the Alonso's and Hamilton's of this world

I wouldn't either. I'm convinced Button is a better driver than Hamilton. If he is as good as Alonso (who twice became WDC in arguably not the best car, on top of it with MS still active) that remains to be seen.

Barichello is close too, if he will manage to up Button or not remains to be seen. But that remains to be seen as well.

[Born Racer]

What I wrote in the Jenson Button thread:

Rubens cut a lonely figure walking back to the pits post-race. I wouldn't be surprised if that's it now, and Button goes to greater heights whilst Barrichello only occasionally beats him (a bit like how Hakkinen was demonstrably the dominant one against Coulthard from Hakkinen's first win onwards).

[Chatters]

Right now Rubens is only 5 points behind Button in the Championship. All it takes is for Jenson to have 1 bad race and he should be right back on top. Trouble is I can't see Button having a bad race in his current form!

Much as I like Rubens, I think this may well be the last season we see him in Formula 1. Which is good, in a way, because if he'd been out of a drive at the end of '08, we wouldn't have had a chance to give him a proper send-off.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Chatters

Much as I like Rubens, I think this may well be the last season we see him in Formula 1.

Just say that the unthinkable happens and Brawn win the WCC, Jenson win's the WDC and Rubens comes second. Why would they want to get rid of Rubens?

[Burnsie]

Rubens will know that 2009 is probably going to be the last chance for him to leave his mark on Formula One, so I don't expect him to sit in Button's shadow this season. It's 15 points versus 10 at the moment, and there are still 150 points to be won...

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Just say that the unthinkable happens and Brawn win the WCC, Jenson win's the WDC and Rubens comes second. Why would they want to get rid of Rubens?

Not sure why that is "unthinkable". However they'd probably drop him in favour of young blood, simply because teams have to move on and RB is getting on in F1 terms.

Originally Posted by Burnsie

Rubens will know that 2009 is probably going to be the last chance for him to leave his mark on Formula One, so I don't expect him to sit in Button's shadow this season. It's 15 points versus 10 at the moment, and there are still 150 points to be won...

It's only five points because of the half point awards for Sepang.

Frankly I think Rubens left his mark at Donington 1993 (overshadowed by Senna's drive) but that was the last time he really shone. He's always been an also ran, even when Stewart won its race, it was Herbert, not Rubens, which should tell us something about grasping opportunities.

In terms of his place in F1 I rate him behind Patrese, Alboreto, Berger and others of that ilk but ahead of Alesi, Irvine etc.

Pretty much a second driver though.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Not sure why that is "unthinkable".

Well, it's getting less and less unthinkable as each race goes on!

[Peter Mallett]

True.

[scoobiesnoop]

Here's the thing though, Rubens is an incredibly fast driver, so why isn't he at the top of the leader board?? If you watch Button he has an incredibly smooth style. F! rewards smooth drivers, so it stands to reason that Button will win races in a good car, but also the ragged edge style can be fruitful (see Montoya, Villenueve etc.) I think rubens has the potential still to win races and a championship but, despite what others think of his time at Ferrari he has been a definite number two all (with the exception of his stewart days) all his career. As for Mike Shoemaker not having a contractual 'arrangement' in place that stipulated his preferential treatment...erm I thought it was 'common knowledge'.

[Peter Mallett]

Montoya was never going to win a WDC as long as his rear end points downwards. He was too ragged.

Rubens is not a ragged driver, but he doesn't get the best out of his equipment by a long way, which is the difference between him and Button who does. Last year was probably a good example of the opposite effect, where we saw that Rubens could drive around problems because he had nothing at stake, whilst Jenson got a bit stuck. Going back further we can look at the way Rubens struggled because of the set up of the car, which was eventually changed and he started moving forwards. I suspect that Jenson just shrugged his shoulders and got on with life but Rubens needed the changes in order to compete.

JV was also a reasonably smooth driver, albeit he could in his prime drive the car on any part of the track, but ragged he wasn't.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Montoya was never going to win a WDC as long as his rear end points downwards. He was too ragged.

Rubens is not a ragged driver, but he doesn't get the best out of his equipment by a long way, which is the difference between him and Button who does.

JV was also a reasonably smooth driver, albeit he could in his prime drive the car on any part of the track, but ragged he wasn't.

Montoya: Well he should've in '03 and for the most part it was through consistent points scoring. Based on what he showed us he most definitely had 1 title in him had everything fallen right.

Rubens: Yes that's a good summary. With him his best is very very good but it only seems to occur once a year at best?

JV: He could really chuck the car about when 'on a charge' but for the most part I wouldn't confuse his style of smooth with simply not being quick enough.