[Tech Issue] Closed cockpits- Closer to reality then we might think?

[Akrapovic]

I understand that the problem with a canopy would be trapping a driver. It's also obvious that the problem doesn't exist with LMPs and GT cars because they have doors. However, how does the Mercedes SLS GT3 cope with it? the doors would be impossible to open should the car be upside down. Presuming they have a solution, is it one which can be used on a single seater canopy?

I'm not sure I personally am a supporter of closed roof cars. But honestly, I have no logical reason why.

[Armco Bender]

Ejector Seats.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I understand that the problem with a canopy would be trapping a driver. It's also obvious that the problem doesn't exist with LMPs and GT cars because they have doors. However, how does the Mercedes SLS GT3 cope with it? the doors would be impossible to open should the car be upside down. Presuming they have a solution, is it one which can be used on a single seater canopy?

I'm not sure I personally am a supporter of closed roof cars. But honestly, I have no logical reason why.

the SLS has a small explosive charge which takes the door hinges off (im actually being serious!)

they have canopies in drag racing and have had a couple of roll overs where the driver has managed to extricate himself easily. I suspect if they have a canopy on an f1 car there will need to be a button to release it from the front and back so when the car is upside down it can essentially just drop and then be slid sideways out of the way. pros and cons I suppose and easier said than done...the other thing to think about is heat too...gonna be mighty hot inside those things in Dubai!!

[bella]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm not sure I personally am a supporter of closed roof cars. But honestly, I have no logical reason why.

this statement makes a lot of sense. it's not an obvious "these cars are bad for the future of the sport because..." type of thing is it?

the only thing i can think of is that personally, i am claustraphobic, and i struggle to cope with small, cramped places where getting out is challenging. for example, i struggle to even look at the lmp1 & lmp2 cars when the driver is in the cockpit. i can only assume that whilst i will never drive or sit in one of those cars, the sheer idea of them really mithers me.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bella

this statement makes a lot of sense. it's not an obvious "these cars are bad for the future of the sport because..." type of thing is it?

the only thing i can think of is that personally, i am claustraphobic, and i struggle to cope with small, cramped places where getting out is challenging. for example, i struggle to even look at the lmp1 & lmp2 cars when the driver is in the cockpit. i can only assume that whilst i will never drive or sit in one of those cars, the sheer idea of them really mithers me.

LOL you should try my funny car out!..only way out is an 24''x24'' escape hatch on the roof :-D

[bella]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

LOL you should try my funny car out!..only way out is an 24''x24'' escape hatch on the roof :-D

*breathes into a paper bag* *goes and stands outside for a while*

genuinely got no idea how you can do that. fair play to you, sir!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bella

*breathes into a paper bag* *goes and stands outside for a while*

genuinely got no idea how you can do that. fair play to you, sir!

LOL well at least I don't run NOS or nitro....I can honestly say I wouldn't have the cahoonas to get in one of those!...at least mine is rear engine with a hayabusa....its basically a 150mph bathtub lol....relatively stable tho :-D...hopfully!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

*breathes into a paper bag* *goes and stands outside for a while*

genuinely got no idea how you can do that. fair play to you, sir!

Bella, I guess you are not first in line for a trip to Mars then.

Horrible idea!

[Casper]

That strut in the driver's line of vision might work when he is sitting in the pit garage before going out but what happens when the driver's head moves due to cornering forces or hitting ripple strips etc? Personally it would drive me nuts, vision in these cars is already marginal and they suggest something like this, pure genius.

[wnut]

The original post of the canopy seems to have disappeared, so for posterity and reference:

http://aimss.com.au/cockpit-canopy-test-full-story/


P.S. I would very much like to see how the Merc effort performs in the same situation!

[ScotsBrutesFan]

I'd suggest that it would depend on the angle of the tyre and the impact point as It could be tipped down on top of the drivers helmet, which defeats the purpose.
The fighter grade cockpit again shows that is the way to go, together with a suitable egress system

[gttouring]

i like the mclaren render, that is very cool.
my only concern is debris deflecting off the canopy like the tire in the test footage, and where that goes and who that hits.
all in all open wheel has been good about safety and a leader really, but even in winged sprint cars people get hurt pretty bad...or die and those cages are tight and those cars very very tough, and very very fast. (ever seen a supermodified race?! holy crap)
the rear anti climb pods in indy i don't think have worked as hoped, i would welcom the Indy guys to dump those things, and introduce the fight canopy before any one else does and really take charge of the future- just hoping as a midwesterner though

[wnut]

Button calls for closed cockpits:

http://www.pitpass.com/54568/Button-...losed-cockpits

"I think you've got to get a canopy on the car of some sort. We can't have this happening as much as it has."

[bjohnsonsmith]

I don't know if anyone was aware of this but I had no idea that a type of cage was used in the 1970 Indy 500. I was trawling through car pics on the IMS website and came across this.

[TRuss]

So is it better then to bounce the tire off of the driver's head instead of a canopy? I don't get this argument. Did anyone not see how high the nose cone blasted off of Wilson's helmet?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't know if anyone was aware of this but I had no idea that a type of cage was used in the 1970 Indy 500. I was trawling through car pics on the IMS website and came across this.

He ran it in practice, and then they stripped it off because it was making the car slow.
Wonder how many lives they would have saved if some progressive body
had made it a rule for the next year?
P.S. Always thought it was much better looking than I expected too!

[wnut]

BJ, Mel Kenyon 1974.

"Mel brought the same #19 Eagle he drove in 1973, equipped with much smaller wings as per the new safety rules, and landed a sponsor in Ayr-Way. After last years melee, He and Don decided to add a roll cage on the Eagle, (above) but because the cage tumbled the air over the car and made it unstable it was removed and replaced with the conventional roll hoop"

From: http://melkenyon.tripod.com/indycarstats70s.html

I have only previously seen the car as N0. 19 as shown in the above article.

[wnut]

The Carlos Sainz accident in Sochi, where the 3rd practice session has once again delivered a clear message as to how vulnerable the drivers head is in accidents. Session cancelled "while barrier is lifted off drivers head."

Are we cynically waiting for the scenario that Richard painted where there will have to be another death before this problem is addressed?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

As much as I'm in favour of F1 looking at closed cockpits, I'd suggest that the Sainz crash isn't of value.

1. the current design has a "line from the top of the roll hoop to a point somewhere near the forced neutral button on the top of the safety cell. the Drivers helmet must stay within that gap. In this case whilst the barriers fell on top of the car, Sainz was free to move around within that space.

2. Regardless of whether there was a canopy, the car submarined under the barriers. It took time to get him out, the Canopy I don't believe would have made much of a difference. The High G stop probably required a "formal Extraction" as a precaution anyway, in which the Marshal's would have used the Safe opening techniques they would have to be trained on.

The biggest issue with the crash is the way the barriers are lifting up or being lifted up and then falling back down onto the drivers rather than being pushed away.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

As much as I'm in favour of F1 looking at closed cockpits, I'd suggest that the Sainz crash isn't of value.

1. the current design has a "line from the top of the roll hoop to a point somewhere near the forced neutral button on the top of the safety cell. the Drivers helmet must stay within that gap. In this case whilst the barriers fell on top of the car, Sainz was free to move around within that space.

2. Regardless of whether there was a canopy, the car submarined under the barriers. It took time to get him out, the Canopy I don't believe would have made much of a difference. The High G stop probably required a "formal Extraction" as a precaution anyway, in which the Marshal's would have used the Safe opening techniques they would have to be trained on.

The biggest issue with the crash is the way the barriers are lifting up or being lifted up and then falling back down onto the drivers rather than being pushed away.

I agree with your points ScotsBrutesFan, however Sainz's head was involved in the accident and basically came millimetres from disaster.
I think we should heed the warning.

[wnut]

Sainz was epically lucky, look at the damage on the monocoque in front of the cockpit.

http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=7

[djinvicta]

Whichever way this goes.."Motor Racing is dangerous".
Even with a closed cockpit, with that speed of accident, who says the cockpit wont jam shut, be broken, whatever. How about a fire as Martin Brundle said. I'm all for safety and more safety, but jamming a driver in a cockpit, I'm not sure.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Whichever way this goes.."Motor Racing is dangerous".
Even with a closed cockpit, with that speed of accident, who says the cockpit wont jam shut, be broken, whatever. How about a fire as Martin Brundle said. I'm all for safety and more safety, but jamming a driver in a cockpit, I'm not sure.

Even with an open cockpit, with that speed of accident, who says the harness release wont jam shut, be broken, whatever. How about a fire as Martin Brundle said. I'm all for safety and more safety, but jamming a driver in a open cockpit, I'm not sure.

(sarcasm off)

Sorry, my tongue in cheek comments that a case can be built to tear down any safety solution, including existing proven ones, are not targeting you or your opinion, but rather the general FUD that exists as a roadblock to safety improvements and reinforces the status quo. The concerns you mention are real, but at the same time other motorsport series (many lesser and with lower budgets) have solved those problems and those solutions have been discussed here ad nauseam.

Originally Posted by wnut

Are we cynically waiting for the scenario that Richard painted where there will have to be another death before this problem is addressed?

I suspect nothing is going to change until we have another Senna level event within F1. The problem is that the sport is short of superstars that might produce enough shock value. It would have to be someone like a Hamilton or Alonso that is killed or maimed to trigger change in F1. So until then, serious improvements will continue to happen in other series first.

Yes, I am beyond cynical on this topic.

Richard

[djinvicta]

Sorry, even with a closed cockpit, the harness can still jam etc etc. All I am pointing out is that the "danger" side of this sport will never stop, all anyone can do is reduce it, and I cannot see enclosing the cockpit as an answer. You can side arguments both ways. The cockpit can fill with fumes etc etc. In truth there isn't an answer to ALL scenarios.. As Brundle said, JB wont be the last..Awful, but true.

[djinvicta]

And I dont agree it needs to be a superstar. I rated JB as a superstar, a life. a human, anyone that does this sport has my admiration. Changes have been made since JB's collision..
I'm sure his Family and Team and all in F1 rated him, a superstar.