Brands to run own meetings?

[redshoes]

I suppose £20 would be the normal price if Reggie had opened his wallet.

The point I was trying to make (badly I know) about being profitable is what is the actual cost vs potentional loss. Lets say for example they make a loss of £10K. It's one thing to ask a sponsor for £10K to cover promotion, it's another to ask them to put up £500K knowing they will get £490K back in reciepts.

[Stephen Green]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Stephen, what I meant was what are the numbers like?

I assume that the drivers' entry fees will pretty much cost of running the meeting, or at least come fairly close. Even allowing for non-paying kids 50-60K spectators is a lot of money in gate receipts to spend on all the aditional attractions and promotion. At the end of the day the CSMA probably make a loss on the event but are we talking thousands or tens of thousands?

Nigel, it varies from year to year but I would estimate between 20,000 - 30,000 spectators.

Interestingly the CSMA also organise on track activities during the lunch break, pit lane walkabouts, attractions for the kids. It's a fabulous day out and an event I always try to marshal. It rather eminds me of the old John Webb orgained events (BHRC) like the Radio 1 day out and Sun free race day.

[Alan Cherry]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I will add to this and this is another thing that bugs me. You get for example the BARC running the meeting so you have to be a member of that, then say you want to run in a CTCRC race you then have to take a membership out there, fancy having a go in another couple of different disiplines, you have to join all the reletive clubs there as well, more membership fees. Just maybe Mr. Palmer has realised that all is not good in the club system as is and just prehaps something good may well come from this.

Al,
I'm running in the BARC TRC series, and I'm not a member of BARC, and on the entry forms it tells you that you don't need to be. I'm probably one of the more financially challenged runners out there, but at todays prices, I think that the series is bloody good value - you get two races for that. The recent sprint at Brands was £139 for a couple of laps, and even with a full entry for the sprint, I doubt if it covered the circuits hire fees ( I know it didn't ) Unless we can attract hot rod / lower league football match size gates, we're going to be the only ones paying the upkeep - either directy or through an independent organising club.

[Al Weyman]

£139 for a couple of laps and they had a full entry!

[R59]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Nigel, it varies from year to year but I would estimate between 20,000 - 30,000 spectators.

Interestingly the CSMA also organise on track activities during the lunch break, pit lane walkabouts, attractions for the kids. It's a fabulous day out and an event I always try to marshal. It rather eminds me of the old John Webb orgained events (BHRC) like the Radio 1 day out and Sun free race day.

Yes, BRING BACK JOHN WEBB! (and Thundersaloons!)

I raced at a couple of the "free" or "£1" days. 30,000 spectators watching numpty's like me race (and qualify out of session on my own - so I had to give it large to put on the show!!)


Rob.

[Al Weyman]

Yes I was at the Sun Day in my humble little Sunbeam Talbot I was running at the time in Road Saloons and I have got to say it was great and made you feel good, in fact the best boost to the ego since I played Rugby on tour in Spain in the 70's at some obscure little town and I reckon the whole town turned up to watch, I think the stadium was a converted bull ring, it was like stepping out for the cup final at Wembley (well sort of) instead of playing to one man and his disintersted dog.

[R59]

No, it's the dog that's interested, and he dragged the man there, though not through the main gate as dog's aren't allowed.

At the Britcar meeting this last weekend at Brands, I was surprised how few people there were in the stands. Racing as good as that deserves better public support, but if the circuit does nothing to promote the meetings within it's gates, what can you do!?

Rob.

[djinvicta]

No sorry Rob, each spectator car should be £10.00 to enter the gate regardless of amount of people in it. Perhaps with more in the gate the price of a plastic cupped tea, £1.00, or coke, £1.70 could be reduced. Also 4 race entry tickets per entrant is not enough. Thanks to you I didnt pay to enter, but over £40.00 was spent by "team" pit support people, that come every meeting, children included, to enter Saturday just gone. Also, advertising in Motoring News or Autosport I cannot see is going to get Joe Public in the gate.

[Al Weyman]

There is obviously a big conflict here between clubs and circuit owners and who gets what and who promote this or that and I think this is the crux of the problem that is driving this great sport down the pan, something needs to be done to break this ridiculous deadlock situation and maybe, just maybe Mr. Palmer may be making the first attempt to do just this, I reckon we should watch with interest and see what pans out.

[djinvicta]

Al; may be talking out of my a++e here; but JP has reduced competitors entry tickets and upped the cost of entry to the circuit to spectators. Whats the 1st attempt? Dave

[Al Weyman]

He still has a business to run and as a small business man on a very very small scale to JP I appreciate the situation he must be finding himself in. Maybe a little pain will be part of the overall gain. I must say both your examples above dont seem to make a lot of sense to me though, just one qustion, does the organising club have any say as to how many competitor tickets are issued? Reason I ask maybe they have been made a deal on their fee for circuit hire and this ticket issue reduction was a condition of that. Just speculating of course here.

[djinvicta]

Claire Williams told me the MSV had cut all competitors tickets. Dont see where the pain gets the gain. If Brands let spectators in for a £1, they will bring all the kids, burgers will sell and Cokes and the shops will open. Rod does a brilliant job organising with other people, meetings like Saturday, and with a bit of "help" from MSV on entry fees and adverts in the right places, like telegraph poles in prominent positions, Saturday meetings could be fuller. I thought there were loads more people there than normal. Ive been Saturdays and South Bank was empty.

[R59]

Dave, I agree with you. £10 per car load. Then charge a couple of quid for the grandstands, charge sensible prices for cans of coke, pints of beer etc..

People don't take to being overcharged, they tend to vote with their feet. Hence the poor attendances.

£1.70 for a can of coke is despicable.

Pile it high, sell it cheap. Works for tesco's!!!!!

[djinvicta]

Works for D J INVICTA SUPPLIES LTD too. If youve got no one coming through the door, you give it away and charge them once theyre in! Al; Were trying to run up to 4 cars in a month or so. Yes it costs a pretty packet, but the PASSION is bigger. We will run with 10 spectators anyday, but it doesnt earn Brands or me anything. Come on JP, help us out and reduce entry fees. AND Rod, keep it up, youve got a passion too thats appreciated. I dont mind paying a price to race at Brands, its an ex Grand Prix circuit that I caught my nappy on the fence in 1958. Well worth it, but it needs people in to watch, specially if Petes arse still swings out!

[djinvicta]

Rod; were not on the "inside" on preperation of a race meeting. Can you enlighten us on the politics going on? What does it cost to run the 2 races last Saturday? Does the Club just exist or make a profit? I for one appreciate the work you must put in with people ringing, or posting of times etc on your website etc etc, when they should pester Andy Ratcliffe instead! It must get gutty. What are your views on entrance fees or the price of Scotch in the Kentagon? Im sure we would like to hear your views or comments on the posts. Disregard mine, Im too passionate, I chuck money at Pete, Bangers and F1 Sidecars, cos I love it all!!

[Stephen Green]

Just going back a few posts...I believe John Webb has beenr etained by MSV so, with him and Robert Fearnal things should be on the up and up.

[HiRich]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

There is obviously a big conflict here between clubs and circuit owners and who gets what and who promote this or that and I think this is the crux of the problem that is driving this great sport down the pan, something needs to be done to break this ridiculous deadlock situation and maybe, just maybe Mr. Palmer may be making the first attempt to do just this...

Al, nail on head there, as I've ranted on about in another thread. However, my belief is that the Clubs have a much more important role - MSV should be working with the best/smartest/most business-savvy Clubs, not competing with them.
A key issue is that most racers don't want to do all their racing at just one circuit. Whilst there is a place for some championships at a single circuit (or two local, like Brands & Lydden), most competitors need a calendar & championship that visits a range of venues (normally owned by a range of companies). Think what is going to happen when Brands Hatch Racing tries to organise meetings at Silverstone, or Donington. That will start creating waves.
I strongly believe that the Clubs (or organising companies) have a major role to play. The structure we have can, and should, work. The fundamental issue is that the Clubs and Circuits do not share the same goals. Clubs are not interested in spectators, because they don't see a reward (a share of the gate income). The Circuits are reluctant to give up part of that income (even if it means investment from the Clubs and a sharing of the risk), yet they also fail to promote the events effectively.
The rational approach would be to work as partners, sharing risks and sharing rewards, perhaps even cross-investing. This MSV initiative appears to me to simply be continuing the competition, and still failing to address some very basic issues.

And on another point, do not expect BHR events to mean cheaper entry fees. BHR will still have to pay circuit rental to MSV, even if it is a 'ghost' transfer of funds. If they do come out cheaper, that will simply be the start of a marketing price war.

[Ian Sowman]

Last time BHRC (or BHLRC) ran race meetings they had a couple of their own championships but mostly invited other existing series. And they did organise races at a variety of circuits, as I recall.

[Rod Birley]

I help the BARC south ease centre committee (purely voluntarily) along with the rest of the members including Andy Ratcliffe. The staff at BARC HQ, like the BRSCC, are salaried. The idea about keeping the costs down with the Track and Race championship is because we base the entry fee on 25 starters (not 15). As it is a local championship it is easier for the volunteers to run and co-ordinate and there are less expenses involved. There is still the isue of circuit hire, insurance etc which varies a great deal depending on the chosen venue. At the moment the only way the T&R championship can run at Brands is to buy track time from another organising club.
With regard to costs of food and drink at Brands I think it relates to the general improvements in the catering outlet areas. In other words the place is cleaner and tidier but it costs more than at say, Lydden.
In summary the only item the BARC S/E can vary is the entry fee, but we are trying to increase the awards as more sponsors come on board for what is turning out to be a popular championship.

[djinvicta]

All one can say is "keep up the good work". With your usual 1st places it must have been a good day for you too. Dave

[flagwaver]

Having read the article about it in motorsport news I am becoming a bit concerned. Please let me explain. Mr Fearnell "spoke of the frustration circuit organisers had at not being able to control the content of meetings they hosted." To my mind that means they will cherry pick. Use the championships they feel the public will want & leave the rest. And that is my concern what happens to the ones they do not want?

[redshoes]

Playing devil's advocate for a minute is that actually a bad thing? I've lost count of the number of threads where we've moaned about there being too many poorly supported series and how the clubs seem unwilling or unable to consolidate or kill them off. If cherry picking the best means those struggling series wither and die and we get a few less series but a few more full grid then that's fine by me.

[R59]

Redshoes, stop it, stop it now! You mustn't tell the truth!!!

[Stephen Green]

Nigel I agree with you completely! Lets not forget that when the BHRC was running before it didn't impact too much on the other clubs, so why should this be any different, by and large the same people will be running it!

[flagwaver]

I don't disagree with you redshoes, my concern is that some well supported championships may not have spectator (MSV) apeal. And whilst I agree that some championships should go, who is giong to bring on new series The Jedi's being one series that IMHO falls into both these catergries.It has taken a few years to get established, now produces good grids (and races) but does not seem to have spectator apeal.