[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[deggis]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Peugeot's interest wouldn't even go that far, they are on record looking for a reduction to 4MJ of hybrid energy amongst other concessions (RCE this month). That level of reduction seems entirely at odds with Toyota's stated aims for the LMP1 program - even with plug-ins being adopted I can't see TMG accepting 4MJ for long if at all.

What about just reinstating the original idea of truly equal MJ categories? Instead of how it turned out to be with the incentive to level up until you can no longer level up (8 MJ).

[chernaudi]

That, IMO, was the biggest thing that the ACO got wrong with these rules. But what should we have expected? People in business, politics and sports routinely say one thing, and do the opposite.

And they have no one to blame but themselves.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by deggis

What about just reinstating the original idea of truly equal MJ categories? Instead of how it turned out to be with the incentive to level up until you can no longer level up (8 MJ).

Never been considered AFAIK. It would make a convenient halfway house, and I could see Toyota accepting given the situation, but again it comes down to the ACO's hubris.

[chernaudi]

I'm probably going to stay off this forum for a few days. Every time I point out how things were better (at least more sustainable) in previous eras someones jumps down my throat and I can sense the crap hitting the fan here.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Obviously my money never mattered compared to all the Macan buyers anyways. But going into LMP1 was supposed to be something of a brand rebuilding exercise to show Porsche still followed its motorsport heritage of passion for Le Mans. Apparently they weren't that serious.

They have spat in my eye. I demand they don't leave.

You buy a 911 and they can't even enter Le Mans in the top class. Pathetic. I'm fairly sure that as well as the body colour centre tunnel trim I ordered I specified continued LMP1 racing as an option.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'm probably going to stay off this forum for a few days. Every time I point out how things were better (at least more sustainable) in previous eras someones jumps down my throat and I can sense the crap hitting the fan here.

But... no one replied to your statement...?

If Porsche are leaving, there's a few positives to the championship for future entries-

Costs are lower without a $200 million spender

Competition is less to overcome with only one 'factory' team

A new manufacturer can promise entry and rewrite the rules to their liking

[chernaudi]

Unfortunately, we're where we're at now because the ACO let things get out of control. The ERS incentive and catering to factory teams almost exclusively is why LMP1 wasn't sustainable.

As I mentioned, LMP900 and LMP1 first gen lasted 5 years with relatively little change. Since 2009, it's been three year plans, constantly changing regs, and sometimes significant rules changes between seasons or in season.

Sometimes, maybe if the ACO left things alone, things would've been more sustainable. Which also means not going with the ERS incentive and throwing a bone to the privateer teams every once in a while.

Every time I've sited LMP900 or LMP1 first generation as examples that the ACO should've followed for stability, I get chewed out for it, but the history doesn't lie.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Every time I've sited LMP900 or LMP1 first generation as examples that the ACO should've followed for stability, I get chewed out for it, but the history doesn't lie.

But you keep just saying that without CITING why with FACTS? Because you loved it, well that's an opinion not a fact. It was BORING racing and the 'unique' cars rarely finished, Audi crushed everyone and it was just which Audi was going to win.

And one reply was jumping down your throat? I honestly want to know why you reference this magical period that NO ONE else here seems to use at every post.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Unfortunately, we're where we're at now because the ACO let things get out of control. The ERS incentive and catering to factory teams almost exclusively is why LMP1 wasn't sustainable.

As I mentioned, LMP900 and LMP1 first gen lasted 5 years with relatively little change. Since 2009, it's been three year plans, constantly changing regs, and sometimes significant rules changes between seasons or in season.

Sometimes, maybe if the ACO left things alone, things would've been more sustainable. Which also means not going with the ERS incentive and throwing a bone to the privateer teams every once in a while.

Every time I've sited LMP900 or LMP1 first generation as examples that the ACO should've followed for stability, I get chewed out for it, but the history doesn't lie.

Those two things aren't exclusive, they're mutual. The manufacturer's pushed for an ers incentive and all agreed on it. They wanted to be seen using more hybrid power and that's what happened. You have to move forward, not backwards. They're trying to remain relevant and attract big names to the series so that it's recognized. Going back to non-hybrids is a nice thought, but an unreasonable one.

[Adam43]

chernaudi, some of us just don't see this great period of sustainability. Since 2000 there hasn't really been much difference in the approach and not one that caused a great period. Not in the number of manufacturers, the competitiveness of the racing, or significantly between the periods of the rules.

Except the last few years of Audi, Porsche and Toyota have been the peak of it (since 2000). Frankly, if that was caused by the ACO then bloody brilliant. I'll take them all leaving to have had that for a bit. Better than years stability and the only story being Henri isn't 'appy because he came second again.

This isn't shooting you down, it is disagreeing with you.

What is to do? If you keep repeating the same things then it is fair play for others to repeat their disagreement. I'm afraid they are eventually taking the extreme to demonstrate the point.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

But you keep just saying that without CITING why with FACTS? Because you loved it, well that's an opinion not a fact. It was BORING racing and the 'unique' cars rarely finished, Audi crushed everyone and it was just which Audi was going to win.

And one reply was jumping down your throat? I honestly want to know why you reference this magical period that NO ONE else here seems to use at every post.

That's exactly why he always references it, and can't seem to make more than 2 posts without mentioning something about Audi.

I don't think the P1 privateer cars will actually materialize, fwiw.

[Adam43]

OK, we've all made our points on this. Time to stop the circular, worthless, repetitiveness, "discussion". And certainly time to stop the digs at others.

[chernaudi]

What I'm most curious about is are these reports speculation, or was there a leak?

The rumors that Porsche will announce their pull out tomorrow (vs late August) and that the decision was due to be made tomorrow (seems to actually have been made between Monday and Wednesday) seem to be either rumors based on the board meeting happening tomorrow, or there was a leak or someone knows and spoke about it.

The comments that Andre Lotterer made today and rumors that some at Porsche Motorsport know what will happen seem to support a leak, and maybe that the decision is made, but yet to be stamped as official.

[Starfish Primer]

If the rumours are right and Porsche leaves to race in Formula-e to me the decision doesn´t have anything with the rules or the budget. The Formula-e is a better marketing tool to sell electric cars than the LMP cars. And this applies to Audi too.

Porsche has smashed the competition in LMP1 and is perfectly normal that now they have new horizons ( F-e, F-1, ... ).

[Adam43]

If anyone has expressed an opinion contrary to this latest opinion there is no need to now repeat it again here or in another thread. Unless, by some miracle, you can add something new.

Posting last does not make you a winner.

[AoB Special Stage]

[seanyb505]

And can we get rid of these ancient tube frame dps? It's 2013 for Pete's sake!

[deggis]

Marcus Schurig said on MWM that Porsche had designed a new car for 2018, with three ERS systems etc, but then with Audi's pullout everything changed all this was wasted. Is this new information?

http://www.radiolemans.co/2017/07/26...12-episode-28/

At/after 27:00.

[eps]

Originally Posted by Matt

That's exactly why he always references it, and can't seem to make more than 2 posts without mentioning something about Audi.

I don't think the P1 privateer cars will actually materialize, fwiw.

What makes you think the P1 privateer cars won't materialise? I'm fairly certain at least one manufacturer will be represented. They have a track record of delivering P2 and P3 cars and all they're left with is P1. They've been pulling together a group of people who have been there and done it and so should be able to at least put something together that is competitive.

[roderick]

Originally Posted by deggis

Marcus Schurig said on MWM that Porsche had designed a new car for 2018, with three ERS systems etc, but then with Audi's pullout everything changed all this was wasted. Is this new information?

http://www.radiolemans.co/2017/07/26...12-episode-28/

At/after 27:00.

That's true.(although I don't have any info on it)
Toyota had also made 3 ERS car...but then audi happened...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by roderick

That's true.(although I don't have any info on it)
Toyota had also made 3 ERS car...but then audi happened...

Did they make it or were they researching it? I thought it was the latter because the 3 ers's weren't supposed to materialize until 2019 or 2020 anyway but then the dieselgate scuppered those thoughts because the wec was in survival mode. Wonder what the deal will be now if Porsche really do pull out? Will they still push with the new rules or just open up for more relatively cheap competition? It'll be interesting to see.

[TF110]

Seems it's official now. Autosport/Motorsport.com are running the story and here are their quotes https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...toyota-934914/ I find this statement very odd, particualy the bolded part

“Entering Formula E and achieving success in this category are the logical outcomes of our Mission E road car programme," said Porsche board member Michael Steiner.

"The growing freedom for in-house technology developments makes Formula E attractive to us.

"For us, Formula E is the ultimate competitive environment for driving forward the development of high performance vehicles in areas such as environmental friendliness, efficiency and sustainability.”

On the Porsche website as well now https://presse.porsche.de/prod/press...otorsport-news

[Lagunaseca_4life]

It's official......http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/p...end-of-season/


Now which dominos will fall?

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Formula E is all marketing hype just like lmp hybrids are.....

[TF110]

At least in lmp1, they can do what they're quoted as saying they can (but really can't) do in F-E. The only thing you can develop there is the drivetrain. No battery, no chassis, no aero etc. I really feel like it's just jumping on a bandwagon of appearing green for cheap.