Greatest Racing Legend

[John Turner]

Yes, Ali, I think we are! Have I managed to persuade you to put my English hero with your Scottish heroes, in the top 10 legends, though?

[ensign14]

The greatest racing legend is Enzo Ferrari. There is no debate about this one whatsoever.

Remember we are not talking about the technical best or whatever. But Enzo bestrode the sport as a Colossus for 70% of its history and his legacy is still with us.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by ensign14

The greatest racing legend is Enzo Ferrari. There is no debate about this one whatsoever.

That could be very true - especially if you define a legend as someone who's historical status far exceeds their actual achievements!

[gfm]

I've read everything I can get my hands on, but I still fail to see what Ferrari had over the first Dr. Porsche.
Porsche invented four wheel drive, front-driver single seaters, the turbo-charger, synchromesh; was responsible for SSK Mercs, VW Beetle, put so much technology into everyday motor cars and motor factories.
Before you all fall out your bath chairs, I'm a huge admirer of Ferrari and love everything they've done, but his efforts were track focussed and race oriantated; I remember he was voted Autocars man of the century; Porsche spanned much more than Ferrari with more original thinking over many more fields with arguably less cock-ups but doesn't receive the accolade.
Odd.

[Andrew Kitson]

Off topic slightly, but anyone who remembers seeing a 1960s F1 Ferrari in the flesh in period will agree how grubby and filthy they were, compared to a shiny Lotus or Brabham etc!

[R59]

If it's like that then...

Otto Benz.

Somebody had to make the engine go suck squeeze bang blow...

But, when it comes to drivers, it has to be between :

Jim Clarke who's ability was stolen from us far too soon, who could extract performance where other driver's would have pitted and parked it.

Ayrton Senna who set the track alight with his flair and temper!

Graham Hill for his precision, Mr Monaco.

Nuvolari - pre war brilliance

[D-Type]

Originally Posted by gfm

I've read everything I can get my hands on, but I still fail to see what Ferrari had over the first Dr. Porsche.
~

Another case of the difference between a 'great' and a 'legend' Legends have that something more that makes them special. Call it charisma, call it passion, call it b4lls, call it a 'wow!' factor, or simply the X-factor. It's hard to put into words but it's there.

[roadmap]

Maybe not the best but I was sitting at the end of the straight in Barcelona when Mansell overtook senna and how he did it only he knew. when he was on a charge it was very exciting to watch

[davemorganfan]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

That could be very true - especially if you define a legend as someone who's historical status far exceeds their actual achievements!

Agreed. I mean, what did he actually achieve? Didn't design much, did he? OK but not outstanding as a driver. The "legend" surrounding him is one that amounts to giving him a status verging on deification, when in fact all he amounted to was a motivator (and manipulator) of men. It was others who did all the hard work that brought racing and road car success.

[cybersdorf]

It doesn't work that way anymore. Racing has diversified into so many different disciplines, and changed so much over time - how do you compare Senna to Vatanen, Alonso to Loeb, Kristensen to Moss,...?

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

It doesn't work that way anymore. Racing has diversified into so many different disciplines, and changed so much over time - how do you compare Senna to Vatanen, Alonso to Loeb, Kristensen to Moss,...?

That's true of most sports - Lance Armstrong's record in the TdeF is amazing, but Eddy Merckx won 100's of events at the same time as winning many TdeFs.

Specialisation is far greater in sport these days than ever before.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by davemorganfan

Agreed. I mean, what did he actually achieve? Didn't design much, did he? OK but not outstanding as a driver. The "legend" surrounding him is one that amounts to giving him a status verging on deification, when in fact all he amounted to was a motivator (and manipulator) of men. It was others who did all the hard work that brought racing and road car success.

That's more or less it - "legend" does not necessarily mean the best, but the one with the aura, the image, the impact.

No-one has had more impact on the motor racing spirit than Enzo Ferrari. Hence the seas of red at every GP, there is nothing similar for Porsche or Benz and there won't be for Schumi.

[Alibell]

Hi John,
RE: English & Scottish Legends..!!!
Now someone has mentioned Enzo... I'm not sure concerning Top 10.
But how about Colin Chapman at number 8.
And Ken Tyrll just outside..???

[John Turner]

Well, I must admit my thoughts tended towards drivers rather than those simply associated with motor racing and I suspect that was what was intended given that I believe this thread was born out of the recent TV poll. However, I respect those who have thought outside the box and added an interesting new dimension to this discussion.

[Alibell]

Hi John,
Agreed...but where's the next JC,JS, or SM coming from.
I find it sad that sometimes there beet a sponsership tag to some of the questionable drivers included in F1.
None of them British..??

[krt917]

I don't think British talent is too bad at the moment, though predicting who might become a legend is almost impossible. Paffet, Hamilton, Wheldon, and of course Davidson could all give F1 a shot, should the right opportunity arise.

I take your point about sponsorship, but that isn't new in F1.

[Remus]

Sir Stirling Moss

Nice way to celebrate my 100th post, after only 3 years of reading this site on a daily basis...

[valvebounce]

Im only a reasonably young fella (still in my 20s... just) so I cannot comment on the legends of yester year like Moss & Fangio. Ayrton Senna is the greatest driver I have witnessed. How do I base this? On the sheer fact that he was the fastest, he set more pole's than any other driver, his dedication and belief that he had a right to win made him the greatest driver of the modern era.

Schumacher is a great driver but I don't believe he is the most gifted. I remember reading that Heinz Harold-Frentzen used to be a superior driver to Schumacher in the early days but wasn't as dedicated. Schumacher would study races and worked very hard to get where he is today. Definately one of the most intelligent drivers/tacticians but perhaps not as gifted as Senna was.

As for the Rugby poll what on earth is Ellery Hanley doing at number 3? Surely you English jest!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by valvebounce

his ........ belief that he had a right to win made him the greatest driver of the modern era.

In my view that was a flaw, and made him dangerous to other drivers. His driving ethics left something to be desired and unfortunately Michael Schumacher adopted some of them. They are both great racing legends but to me at least, that flaw in their driving standards will forever put them behind some drivers who, statistically, cannot match their achievements.

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by John Turner

In my view that was a flaw, and made him dangerous to other drivers. His driving ethics left something to be desired and unfortunately Michael Schumacher adopted some of them. They are both great racing legends but to me at least, that flaw in their driving standards will forever put them behind some drivers who, statistically, cannot match their achievements.

Agree 100% John, Senna was more than a bit of a cheat.

[D-Type]

Originally Posted by John Turner

In my view that was a flaw, and made him dangerous to other drivers. His driving ethics left something to be desired and unfortunately Michael Schumacher adopted some of them. They are both great racing legends but to me at least, that flaw in their driving standards will forever put them behind some drivers who, statistically, cannot match their achievements.

Very well put, John.

To merit 'legend status' it's not only how many wins etc a driver has but also how they were obtained.

[Mackmot]

I dont think its a flaw. I think that is what makes them great, they have the highest desire to win than anyone else and the self belief to get them there.

I dont think that makes a legend though. Legends are like mythology, they are stories of people doing great things like Nuvolari in his last race and Senna at Monaco.

Thats why I chose Andy Barton, I here stories all the time of this heroic, Herculean guy from Newcastle who raced with a broken arm and a pin sticking out of his elbow 8 inches, finishing the race and taking a bottle of scotch from under the seat and drinking it. Stories of taking tyres of wheels with his bare hands before a race and doing alsorts of amazing feats of human strength and endurance.

[valvebounce]

Originally Posted by D-Type

Very well put, John.

To merit 'legend status' it's not only how many wins etc a driver has but also how they were obtained.

I half agree that he was at times too aggressive and at times perhaps dangerous. Did this contribute to the number of wins. Yes. Did it contribute to him putting the car on pole nearly every time he was out there? No.

He was the quickest man in F1. Whilst a one lap wonder doesnt make a good driver, he went on to win races, setting fastest lap times and like Schumacher was brilliant in the wet.

Its debatable what makes a great driver and everyone will have there own ideas. To me a good driver is someone who can put a car round a track in the quickest time. A good racer is different. A good racer requires determination, desire and application. A good racer finishes first. They may be aggressive (and you most always need to be) but they are winners. A good driver doesnt necessarily win races, a good racer does. Senna seemed to have both these qualities.

[D-Type]

I don't dispute that Senna was one of the most talented drivers ever and one of the greatest racers, but there is nothing that can justify Suzuka 1990. To sit on the grid and say "If he gets into the first corner ahead of me I am going to drive into him to take him off" can only be a shade short of paranoia. And to later try and justify it like a petulant kid!

I suppose that could be the stuff of which legends are made.

Legendary and Great are different.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Mackmot

I dont think its a flaw. I think that is what makes them great, they have the highest desire to win than anyone else and the self belief to get them there.

There is nothing wrong with having the highest desire to win or having self belief, but that should manifest itself in the ability to beat others cleanly and with superior driving skill. It is weaving, forcing drivers onto the grass, or into pit walls, making them take evasive action at high speed, or just plain running them off the road that devalues that skill. That is the flaw; it should have no place in a sport which is already inherently dangerous.