Lap Records

[Clive Brown]

It has occurred to me that as racing has 'progressed' through the years, amongst the data obscured or even lost has been the audit trail of lap records from formulae that are either extinct or at best, dormant. What, by way of example, is the current 850cc Special Saloon lap record at Mallory Park? Who holds it now? How did it get there? Who keeps circuit lap records?
Circuit owners? RACMSA?

Surely it should not be impossible to set up a publically-accessible database?

[MGDavid]

no doubt a lot of info 'out there' in the hands of old competitors, series admins, championship co-ordinators etc - but it gets more complicated when cross-referenced to track and circuit layout alterations...

[Everilda]

Lap records for Croft, Cadwell Park, Knockhill and Ingliston can be found here http://www.smart-timing.co.uk/

[andrewc]

Originally Posted by Everilda

Lap records for Croft, Cadwell Park, Knockhill and Ingliston can be found here http://www.smart-timing.co.uk/

It would be useful if it was up to date. A Croft record that changed in 2010 isn't listed - nor does it include series that don't use the SMART timing service - I can't imagine the BTCC lap record is still that from 1998?

[Gerry Taylor]

Hi Clive, may years ago I asked the same question, it happened to be about Silverstone, but it seems that no one, not even Silverstone has an archive! During my career I held the class record twice, 1.8.2secs and then again at 1.8 secs.
The only record of this is from old programmes. To complicate things even further when I held a lap record at Mallory Park way back in the mists of time, on the old short circuit, the Cov & Warwick's Club, altered the chicane the following week, giving a really wide full chat drift into it from the Esses. I naturally asked in my polite manner what the **** was going on? They virtually told me they could do as they liked! "Oh, really".......? I contacted the RAC (Bas Tye in those days) they were told that ONLY the RAC MSA can alter a licenced circuit layout, and to replace the Armco, if they didn't mind! and my record was reinstated.
A shame that over all this time no official body has kept an archive though.

[Vitesse]

If anybody wants to go back and work on it, in (I think) late 1968 or early 1969, Motoring News published a full set of lap records for every UK circuit. As a callow youth I did keep files of all the changes for about four years. However, those files are long gone ...

[JP]

The Mini 7 Racing Club always kept a full list of its records. I think most circuits scrubbed all existing records whenever track configurations changed, but we regarded every change as creating a record that would stand for all time. So we could tell you, if you were interested, who holds the Mini 7 850cc record for Brands Paddock Hill circuit, the club circuit before and after re re-profiling of Paddock, Mallory short circuit with or without chicane, etc, etc.

[JBT]

Bit of a hijack thread but on the same track, what's the outright lap record for the current Brands Hatch GP loop? I was watching the 1986 British GP Saturday qualifying on DVD the other day, and it occured to me that, while Ghraham Hil Bend, Hawthorns, Westfield, Dingle Dell corner and Stirlings have all been reprofiled since 1986, The average speed attainable on the current layout is probably pretty close to what it could be in 1986 (with the same car, if time travel was possible). Does the BOSS / EUROBOSS series run on the GP loop? I would guess thats the fastest series that runs at Brands since the demise of A1GP (which weren't much faster than F3 cars in lap time but were much more interesting to watch trackside, at least for me anyway).

[big andy]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

It has occurred to me that as racing has 'progressed' through the years, amongst the data obscured or even lost has been the audit trail of lap records from formulae that are either extinct or at best, dormant. What, by way of example, is the current 850cc Special Saloon lap record at Mallory Park? Who holds it now? How did it get there? Who keeps circuit lap records?
Circuit owners? RACMSA?

Surely it should not be impossible to set up a publically-accessible database?

im sure you no the answer to this clive !! but ill have a guess at peter day in a fiat 500??

[Clive Brown]

I don't actually know, which is why I picked that particular example. Peter Day's Fiat 500 was not actually particularly successful, and I would guess that the 850cc record is probably held by an Imp of some sort. David Leaver, who was local? Roger Gill? If not an Imp, then perhaps Charles Bernstein's Patrick Motor Group Mini.

[Everilda]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

I don't actually know, which is why I picked that particular example. Peter Day's Fiat 500 was not actually particularly successful, and I would guess that the 850cc record is probably held by an Imp of some sort. David Leaver, who was local? Roger Gill? If not an Imp, then perhaps Charles Bernstein's Patrick Motor Group Mini.

Charles Bernstein did hold the Mallory Park 850cc special saloon record set on 12.8.79 in the Mini at 53.67sec 90.55mph.
This was broken by Barry Reece Isis Californian Imp on 20.6.82 at 52.6sec 92.39mph.

Anyone with later information?

[Gerry Taylor]

Hi everyone, on a murkey afternoon here in the countryside, I thought I'd look through my old records, and just out of interest, see what the 850cc Lap Records were back in the late sixties and early seventies. All at MALLORY PARK:
1966: as at May 8th.Special Saloons up to 850cc: John Fitzpatrick: Austin Mini.
64.60 seconds. Full Circuit.
1968: as at: July 28th. Special Saloons up to 850cc: Roger Williamson: Austin Mini: 61.2 seconds. Full Circuit.
1970: as at; September 27th. Special Saloons up to 850cc: Keith Holland.
Hillman Imp: 58.4 seconds: Full Circuit.
(Keith held this through until 1971) as at: March 28th 1971.
1972: as at August 27th. Special Saloon s up to 850cc: Mike Evans: 58.2 seconds. BLMC Mini. Full Circuit.
On October 1st that same year, Mike dropped the 850cc record to@ 58 seconds dead.
Whilst on the subject, the SHORT CIRCUIT 850cc record was held by: Andrew Wheldon: as at July 2nd 1972. BLMC Mini. 42.6 seconds.
1973: as at: April 1st 1973: Special Saloons up to 850cc: Peter Crouch: BLMC Mini: 57.2 seconds. Full Circuit.As a guide to the speed differential, my record on the short circuit that same year was 40.2 seconds, so you can see the 850cc saloons were not that far off the up to 1.litre cars.
Hope this is of interest, Clive.

[Andy Clegg]

This is from the 6th September 1975, from the Gold Cup Program.
Andy

[terence]

Clive,had you not though of googling the question? Check Brits on Pole for a start or just Google British Motor Race Circuits. Lap Records,whole host of sites on the page.

[Flyingscot]

Originally Posted by Everilda

Charles Bernstein did hold the Mallory Park 850cc special saloon record set on 12.8.79 in the Mini at 53.67sec 90.55mph.
This was broken by Barry Reece Isis Californian Imp on 20.6.82 at 52.6sec 92.39mph.

Anyone with later information?

Barry Reece Record still stands, as no other "quick" 850's were about after that. I think Ben Bowlby has the 1000cc record with a 49 something lap.
Would love to hear from any of the "old" Special Saloon protagonists from
my era. aka 1976 to 1985. I used to hold the Lyyden record but some little "Ginger" person came along at the Barry Reece Trophy Race and took
it with some old Mini Traveller. Happy days. Mike Law.

[Clive Brown]

For many years, John Homewood held the 1000cc Special Saloon lap Record at Lydden. I can't recall Ginger ever having held it, as it was difficult to gear the Mini Traveller/Reliant Kitten for Lydden.

At one point, David Enderby held the one litre Special Saloon lap record in his Maguire Singer Chamois Coupé. I'm not sure he ever held that same record in the Karmann Ghia, which is strange, although I believe he held the 1300cc record in that car. At one time, Rob Mason held the one litre record in Ernie Woods' Stiletto, which he set at a Barry Reece Trophy meeting. 44.7 sounds vaguely familiar. Rob also held the 1300 record in a Stiletto he built for Harry Humberstone. I suspect that the current one litre record still stands to Bob Jarvis in his Ray Imp, although I stand to be corrected by those with greater knowledge, better memories, and documentary proof!

The 850cc record still probably stands to Fred Hendy, as during the period when Barry Reece had his 850 Imp coupé, the Wendy Wools championship did not visit Lydden.

Perhaps this goes some way to explaining just why I raised this subject. I'd like to be able to see an audit trail for class lap records for all categories (not just Special Saloons) at all UK circuits.

[Flyingscot]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

For many years, John Homewood held the 1000cc Special Saloon lap Record at Lydden. I can't recall Ginger ever having held it, as it was difficult to gear the Mini Traveller/Reliant Kitten for Lydden.

At one point, David Enderby held the one litre Special Saloon lap record in his Maguire Singer Chamois Coupé. I'm not sure he ever held that same record in the Karmann Ghia, which is strange, although I believe he held the 1300cc record in that car. At one time, Rob Mason held the one litre record in Ernie Woods' Stiletto, which he set at a Barry Reece Trophy meeting. 44.7 sounds vaguely familiar. Rob also held the 1300 record in a Stiletto he built for Harry Humberstone. I suspect that the current one litre record still stands to Bob Jarvis in his Ray Imp, although I stand to be corrected by those with greater knowledge, better memories, and documentary proof!

The 850cc record still probably stands to Fred Hendy, as during the period when Barry Reece had his 850 Imp coupé, the Wendy Wools championship did not visit Lydden.

Perhaps this goes some way to explaining just why I raised this subject. I'd like to be able to see an audit trail for class lap records for all categories (not just Special Saloons) at all UK circuits.

Hi Clive, re Lydden records, Bob Jarvis, David Enderby and Brian Chatfield
all set records on the same day when they did 12 laps joined together like
a white and black snake. the lap time was I think 43.8. Bob then put a 1.7
ford crossflow in his car. A year later with my mid engined car it was down
to 43.7 and the Ginger person took it down to 43.6 at Barry Reece meeting when Pat Mannion drove my car.

[Flyingscot]

Hi Clive,

Having found some old result sheets I realise I was talking a load of rubbish.
Over 1300cc record....Robert Bridger / 1700 Toyota Starlet..43.3 set
on 2/10/88 at BARC LHC Meeting.
Up to 1300cc Record..David Enderby / 1298 Karman Ghia..43.7 set
on 16/8/87 at BARC Wendy Wools Round.
Up to 1000cc Record..Pat Mannion / 998 Ray Stiletto....44.0 set
on 12/7/87 at Astra Motor Club, Barry Reece Trophy Final.
This is according to the results I have----unless somebody knows different. !!! You were correct about Ginger and his Reliant Kitten, fastest
time 44.3 on 12/7/87. Regards Mike.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Flyingscot

Over 1300cc record....Robert Bridger / 1700 Toyota Starlet..43.3 set
on 2/10/88 at BARC LHC Meeting.
Up to 1300cc Record..David Enderby / 1298 Karman Ghia..43.7 set
on 16/8/87 at BARC Wendy Wools Round.
Up to 1000cc Record..Pat Mannion / 998 Ray Stiletto....44.0 set
on 12/7/87 at Astra Motor Club, Barry Reece Trophy Final.

I find the Robert Bridger record hard to believe, as I'm sure that Nick Whiting did a Lydden meeting in his GAA Escort, although he would have been in the over 2500cc class. Rob Mason took Harry Humberstone's two litre Hart-powered Stiletto there. Tony Dickinson also took his Skoda there, as did Alan Humberstone in the same car; how fast did they go?

In its final form, Enderby's KG had a 1700 BDA, although I can't say if he ever raced that at Lydden in the dry. Also, did Bob Jarvis never take his Stiletto with the 1700 pushrod Ford motor to Lydden? Lastly, Brian Chatfield took his Gp.5 BMW 320i to Lydden; how fast did he go?

Robert Bridger was a cracking driver, but at the end of the day, his car was a tin Toyota Starlet with a Ford pushrod motor, and I find it hard to believe that he was faster than all those that I have mentioned previously.

Can anyone offer a solution?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

I find the Robert Bridger record hard to believe, as I'm sure that Nick Whiting did a Lydden meeting in his GAA Escort, although he would have been in the over 2500cc class. Rob Mason took Harry Humberstone's two litre Hart-powered Stiletto there. Tony Dickinson also took his Skoda there, as did Alan Humberstone in the same car; how fast did they go?

In its final form, Enderby's KG had a 1700 BDA, although I can't say if he ever raced that at Lydden in the dry. Also, did Bob Jarvis never take his Stiletto with the 1700 pushrod Ford motor to Lydden? Lastly, Brian Chatfield took his Gp.5 BMW 320i to Lydden; how fast did he go?

Robert Bridger was a cracking driver, but at the end of the day, his car was a tin Toyota Starlet with a Ford pushrod motor, and I find it hard to believe that he was faster than all those that I have mentioned previously.

Can anyone offer a solution?

I know what you mean about the 'Starlet' they weren't 'classic' special saloons but IIRC, that car was mega quick and ended up even more poked in Thunderloons?

There was a lot of those variants about in the late 80's/early 90's wasn't there?

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I know what you mean about the 'Starlet' they weren't 'classic' special saloons but IIRC, that car was mega quick and ended up even more poked in Thunderloons?

Quick for what it was, but heavy and high, and I can't believe that it would have been faster than Bob Jarvis's Ray Stiletto with a motor of the same type, or the Demon Doctor's KG with a good 1700 BDA.

Of course it depended upon who raced upon which day, and I seem to recall that not all Lydden meetings were fully timed. Overall race times were recorded, but not individual laps. Grid times were determined by 'probability', which gave Lydden regulars some considerable advantage over they damned furriners from outside the Garden of England. Oh happy days....

[Flyingscot]

Hi Clive,
All the figures I quoted are from official result sheets. In 1988 when Robert Bridger did his 43.3, his race time was about 10 secs quicker than Davids from the year before, so one must assume that his car was quicker. As I stated before Brian Chatfield, David Enderby and Bob Jarvis did a race nose to tail in that order, all setting the same time, if you remember Bob actually had his car almost inside the back bodywork of the KG, much to Davids chagrin. I was competition secretary of BARC LHC at the time so I was watching fro m the sidelines. Unfortuneately I dont have the date or result sheet of this. Bob never raced his car at Lydden in 1700 form, as I remember he converted it, did the "winter warmers" at
Brands Hatch in 1988 then sold it on to Ron Greenfield and Robin Harvey.
neither of whom had any significant success with it. As far as I know David never raced his car at Lydden with his 1700 lump. A lot of my paperwork and programmes were eaten by a family of mice in my garage
at Purley, I am trying to get updates through the BARC. After 1988 I had to start working for a living (in motor racing), but always kept an eye on
results especially from Lydden. Anyway I have bored you enough, Mike.

[Alan Brown]

In Autosport (13-10-77) there is a report of the final TEAC meeting at Lydden, in which Nick Whiting, with his 3.4 Escort, did a 44.6 which was believed to be a lap record for special saloons.

[big andy]

this is the ex bridger starlet owned by me great car .with the crossflow fitted it weighted well under 800kg and handled like a dream