The Pug Comedy Store: A Salute to B Famin

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by Mal

I am sure the techies will shout me down but I think the jury is still out on this.

Looking at the 2007 LMP2 works team qualifying times in ALMS against the 2006 best of the privateers there is a huge difference in pace:

Miller Motorsports park - 2006 LMP2 Fastest privateer (Lola) 2.30.043. The 2007 works Porsche qualifying time was 2.18.128 that is nearly 12 seconds faster!!

At Sebring 2006 fastest privateer (courage) 1.52.068. The 2007 Works Porsche qualifying time is was 1.46.046 - 6 seconds faster.

If a full works petrol LMP1 team could make the same strides over the privateers as this then they would be at least competitive with the Diesels

Such facts apparently mean nothing to the anti diesel folks.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

Such facts apparently mean nothing to the anti diesel folks.

Just to get the caveats out of the way first, I'm not anti-diesel, in fact, I think the presence of diesels at Le Mans and elsewhere is enormously positive. I'm not wedded to the notion that fast cars should sound loud - I quite like the low whistle of an R10, and most days I drive a hybrid-electric car (albeit a company car rather than something I chose) and am pleasantly surprised that it's not as rubbish as I expected it to be. What I do think is that the balancing is a touch out, and while I agree there is not yet a truly fair comparison, works to works, I don't think the current situation is doing a lot for either the LMS or the ALMS.

The scenarios posited by Mal are absolutely fine, but I worry are comparing slightly unique scenarios. At Sebring 06 the Miracle Courage was running an aged chassis and tyres that were yet to be seen as competitive, equally their programme was running to a halt and so we can assume development was not what it might have been. At Miller the Intersport was on Goodyears (again, tyres that weren't likely to flatter the car) and had more or less a weekend to forget. So - fair enough and can't argue with the facts, but the sample simply isn't big enough to readily draw conclusions about whether or not a factory petrol effort would match up; my gut feel is they wouldn't, but sadly I doubt we'll ever really see.

More seriously, and getting back to the light hearted orisins of this thread, do we really think Bruno Famin was being serious when he stated that the diesels were being unfairly penalised? I for one laughed at that one right at the start, and am still doing so now.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by canam

There are very few teams that could even begin thinking about affording to run a 908 (likely to be more expensive that a RS spyder) or a new prodrive LMP car (if they make one). The Aston programme has probably not even broken even yet--despite the high cost of the car. LMP cars are even more limited production so they will either be prohibitively expensive or not much different from what is already available.

I'm not so sure about that, there seems to be plenty of money flowing about, especially for the right car, which a 908 with factory help would certainly be.

I'm not really thinking about a smaller team like Rollcentre, more Charouz or Vitaphone who've come from top level single seaters or the DTM with big funding.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by isynge

The scenarios posited by Mal are absolutely fine, but I worry are comparing slightly unique scenarios. At Sebring 06 the Miracle Courage was running an aged chassis and tyres that were yet to be seen as competitive, equally their programme was running to a halt and so we can assume development was not what it might have been. At Miller the Intersport was on Goodyears (again, tyres that weren't likely to flatter the car) and had more or less a weekend to forget. So - fair enough and can't argue with the facts, but the sample simply isn't big enough to readily draw conclusions about whether or not a factory petrol effort would match up; my gut feel is they wouldn't, but sadly I doubt we'll ever really see.

That is a fair point but all situations are unique to a degree. These were the only two track ALMS have run at in both 2006 and 7 that I thought gave a realisitc comparison to the European tracks. Long Beach & St Pete's were new this year and Houston, being a street track does not really compare - although the figure for that are:

2006 Qualifying - Lola - 1.08.399
2007 Qualifying - Porsche - 101.824

again a large gap, this time 6.5 secs

Also whilst you can comment on particular situations of the Courage and Lola they were still the fastest of all the LMP2 cars in qualifying so their qualifying performance at least can't have been that bad.

The result from Lime Rock and Mid Ohio will give further figures to add to this argument.

[canam]

Originally Posted by JAG

I'm not so sure about that, there seems to be plenty of money flowing about, especially for the right car, which a 908 with factory help would certainly be.

I'm not really thinking about a smaller team like Rollcentre, more Charouz or Vitaphone who've come from top level single seaters or the DTM with big funding.

I have heard that the cost of renting the R8 Audi engine for a full season is something like 7 times that of a Judd...and it looks to be of similar pedigree to the 5.5 Judd.

When Velocx ran the R8s, the rumour was that the budget for the year was £4m (excluding the purchase of the car) per car. Goh's R8 was higher. Notice that neither Sam Li nor Mr Goh are involved at presentin either LM or the LMS.

You may get the one odd 'player' but when you get trounced by the 'works' team (because you will not get the same package as them), why bother. Throw in the possiblity of reg changes, the cost/benefit does not look that great.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by canam

I have heard that the cost of renting the R8 Audi engine for a full season is something like 7 times that of a Judd...

That figure is extraordinary, if true (and I have no reason to doubt you )!

[brielga]

First fact: Only a factory team can afford developing a Diesel engine.
Second fact: Diesel tanks were reduced by 10ltrs in 2007

So, Diesel was a way to get/keep manufacturers but rules were too generous. I guess the ACO is looking for a proper balance which is possibly not so easy to find as well as generating the unavoidable whining/lobbying/politics despite of the equivalence being there or not. The ALMS (twisty circuit+ more restrictor for LMP2) formula seems to have been an attempt to keep TV audiences but is clearly not sustainable. The potential light af the end of the tunnel was the performance of the Swiss Spirit Lola but this has proven complicated given the late debut and the Le Mans issues the car had. But let's not forget that even with rules up to microscopic level (e.g. in F1) there is always a chance that a breakthrough (of any kind) puts a team or two way ahead of the rest in terms of pace. Is this a symptom of bad rules? Were the 917 favored by the rules? It is and will remain a tough discussion since an image of Diesel-biased rules is already there unless a proper performance (works) petrol car can challenge that. Will Porsche or Acura dare that?
Just my 2 cents.

[JAG]

Just read the DCS Spa LMS preview, once again very interesting.

One thing however is really bemusing me, DSC are regretting the fact there will be no reg changes mid season, so European fans will have to put up with Peugeots diesel domination for the rest of the year.

In isolation this is all well and good, looking only at the LMS it's obvious diesels have a massive advantage, isn't it?

Since the last post in this thread, a thread in which most had a hearty laugh at how ridculous Peugeots comments (in the OP) were, Audi have been beaten in another THREE ALMS races by Penske Porsche, including on the ultimate US power track, Road America.

Penske are making a complete mockery of claims the diesel advantage is overwhelming, even with the under powered RS Spyder, at Road America, consitent running and great pit work/strategy saw them win against TWO FACTORY Audi R10's.

Is anyone REALLY in any doubt Penske Porsche would, at the very least, be equally competitive with a Porsche P1 petrol powered car?

We only need to look at how off the pace the privateer Creations are in the US, thanks to a combination of factors, compared to outings by the factory team. We can now see just how much time can be gained/lost through tures, drivers, strategy, pitwork, reliability, constant developemt etc, before we even move on to ultimate power/torque.

And before anyone mentions it, of course there was a rain break at Road America, but come on, Audi should still won with ease on that track even if there was a monsoon, IF their advantage was so overwhelming.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by JAG

Is anyone REALLY in any doubt Penske Porsche would, at the very least, be equally competitive with a Porsche P1 petrol powered car?

I'd put it the other way around: a P1 petrol Porsche would be at least as competitive as the Penske Spyders if run by an equally strong team.

[HORNDAWG]

I think that is one of the reasons that we will not see the Peugeots in the ALMS this year. They know that not only would they have to contend with the Audis but also all the works/ semi-works P-2 teams with the real chance of getting beat by said P-2's. So they go from an almost assured win to having to compete with at least 9 cars capable(?) of beating them.

You would think that they would have a go against the ALMS P-2's just to see what the Spyder was capable of against them when ran by a top notch team before they have to next year in the LMS, or maybe by the performance of the Spyders in the ALMS they expect the ACO to make adjustments to the P-2's for next year and won't have to face them in the current iteration.

L.P.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by JAG

Just read the DCS Spa LMS preview, once again very interesting.

One thing however is really bemusing me, DSC are regretting the fact there will be no reg changes mid season, so European fans will have to put up with Peugeots diesel domination for the rest of the year.

In isolation this is all well and good, looking only at the LMS it's obvious diesels have a massive advantage, isn't it?

Since the last post in this thread, a thread in which most had a hearty laugh at how ridculous Peugeots comments (in the OP) were, Audi have been beaten in another THREE ALMS races by Penske Porsche, including on the ultimate US power track, Road America.

Penske are making a complete mockery of claims the diesel advantage is overwhelming, even with the under powered RS Spyder, at Road America, consitent running and great pit work/strategy saw them win against TWO FACTORY Audi R10's.

Is anyone REALLY in any doubt Penske Porsche would, at the very least, be equally competitive with a Porsche P1 petrol powered car?

We only need to look at how off the pace the privateer Creations are in the US, thanks to a combination of factors, compared to outings by the factory team. We can now see just how much time can be gained/lost through tures, drivers, strategy, pitwork, reliability, constant developemt etc, before we even move on to ultimate power/torque.

And before anyone mentions it, of course there was a rain break at Road America, but come on, Audi should still won with ease on that track even if there was a monsoon, IF their advantage was so overwhelming.

McNish had a cut tire and Penske's cars had fast laps less than 2 seconds off Audi's fast laps. You can't compare them side-by-side as they aren't in the same lmp class.

[vorsprung]

Originally Posted by JAG

Is anyone REALLY in any doubt Penske Porsche would, at the very least, be equally competitive with a Porsche P1 petrol powered car?

This has been my position all along.
I think a P1 Porsche would have faster fastest laps, but would've lost a race or two were P2 won due to worse fuel consumption.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by JAG

Penske are making a complete mockery of claims the diesel advantage is overwhelming, even with the under powered RS Spyder, at Road America, consitent running and great pit work/strategy saw them win against TWO FACTORY Audi R10's.

Perhaps Audi could help out their cause by running this year's cars, sometime?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Perhaps Audi could help out their cause by running this year's cars, sometime?

I would think that Audi has converted the 2006 cars to 2007 specs.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Perhaps Audi could help out their cause by running this year's cars, sometime?

In a round about way maybe you've proved my point.

The well developed 2007 RS Spyder has turned around any advantage the 'unbeatable' 2006 Audi R10 had, yet we are to believe a developed facotry P1 (petrol) couldn't overturn the 2 second gap between the latest 908 and privateer, customer petrol P1's.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by JAG

In a round about way maybe you've proved my point.

The well developed 2007 RS Spyder has turned around any advantage the 'unbeatable' 2006 Audi R10 had, yet we are to believe a developed facotry P1 (petrol) couldn't overturn the 2 second gap between the latest 908 and privateer, customer petrol P1's.

I believe that the R10s would be much more competitive relative to the 2007 RS Spyder over the course of the LMS calender than they have been over the ALMS one. Valencia would surely favour the P2s (as it did in the LMS) but the straights at Spa, Silverstone and Monza would work in favour of the Audi. I bet Nurby would be a bit of a draw, and Interlagos probably would favour the Audi, but whether anyone at all shows up there is doubtful.

[brielga]

In South America we say "you see the horse on the track". All this speculation only increases the expectation to see the Peugeot vs Porsche (vs Audi) confrontation ,both in high speed circuits and Mickey Mouse-like ones. I can't wait for LM 2008, will Penske or Dyson decide to make that step? I only say that because I think the LMS teams will be there but will not have the year(s) of development these 2 will have by then. Acura will also be a nice one to see in Europe, at least at LM where I'm sure they will attend.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by brielga

I can't wait for LM 2008, will Penske or Dyson decide to make that step?

I doubt Penske will race at Le Mans, if they can't go for overall victory. The minimum weight will be increased by 50 kg to slow down LMP2.

[The Badger]

I doubt that Dyson will make it either ..... he just talks about it is all .

Must admit , it would be great to see Dyson V's Penske at Le Mans though .

[bil588]

Why does Bruno Famin compare the lighter-weight LMP2 RS Spyders from Penske to prove that regs don't favor diesels in LMP1?

They are two different classes with 150 kgs with one difference to start.

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