2009 Australian Sports & GT Championships

[Oldtony]

Personal opinion.
I think V8SC under it's current format and management probably peaked in it's popularity around 2008. It is in slow decline because the show is becoming increasingly irrelevant as motor sport and is increasingly depending on it's "creating an event" status. That is why it has maintained, and possibly increased it's political standing and ability to attract government subsidy. That is a dangerous game long term, and I think we are starting to see the cracks developing in the willingness of government, the motor industry and sponsors in general to be identified with, aqnd more importantly pay for, the current show.
The questions are not about another series, be it GT, Sports cars, series production or open wheelers to threaten V8SC for popularity by their own growth.
The probable situation is which series will be in the strongest position to pick up the pieces when the tipping point is reached where the V8SC series either implodes or starts to decline so rapidly that an alternative becomes urgent if the sport is to survive.

[ff s conscience]

Falc, you may wax lyrical, but you've still got it all wrong. And you've made so many guesses and assumptions I really don't know where to start to pick your argument apart (and I haven't worked out how to multi quote yet )

First and foremost, the main drawcard is the cars. Not the owners or even the drivers, and not the teams.

The CARS are the stars... YES, they need to be driven by equally and highly abled professional drivers to truly create appeal, but the cars are the drawcard. The variety of styles, sounds and abilites at different circuits.

and you misunderstood the car density thing... noone said about 5 teams... it's 5 cars of each type... Theres at least 12 GT3 cars (Ferrari 430, Porsche 997, Lambo Gallardo, Audi, Viper, Corvette, Lotus, BMW, Ascari, Morgan, Ford GT, Mosler), I can think of in 10 seconds, so thats 55 cars already eligible to run. (as the Moslers should be banned )...

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by bluesport

I didn't say anything about production based........it was your comment: "and every team would soon be running just that car".......V8 Supercars are heading in that direction in 2010 unless TC's recent comments about some red teams turning blue come to fruition.

Yeah, but the point is, that in V8 Supercar a HRT Commodore is nothing like a Triple Eight Commodore or a Paul Morris Motorsport Commodore or Kelly Racing Commodore. The fact that two-thirds of teams are using a Holden analogue car is not going to have any real bearing on the series.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

The CARS are the stars... YES, they need to be driven by equally and highly abled professional drivers to truly create appeal, but the cars are the drawcard. The variety of styles, sounds and abilites at different circuits.

And you don't get that the public won't agree with that. But that's OK, because I've got everything else wrong. The cult of celebrity that dominates current society requires a certain level of ownership of the leading drivers by the public. The cars themselves just won't do it. Yacht racing has sleek expensive goregously curved boats that we all would love to sail around the Whitsundays, but that doesn't mean the Australian public isn't going to spend anymore than two days a year paying any attention to yacht racing. We don't have in 'in' with Neville Crichton or Grant Wharrington. People don't buy Lady Gaga CDs in huge volumes just because she's a good singer, she also has a personality that fascinates people. AGT is faceless in that regard.

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

and you misunderstood the car density thing... noone said about 5 teams... it's 5 cars of each type... Theres at least 12 GT3 cars (Ferrari 430, Porsche 997, Lambo Gallardo, Audi, Viper, Corvette, Lotus, BMW, Ascari, Morgan, Ford GT, Mosler), I can think of in 10 seconds, so thats 55 cars already eligible to run. (as the Moslers should be banned )...

I got it exactly. And you missed my point. All five Porsche slots are taken. A pro-team comes along and says I have Porsche backing and a pro-driver, now kick-out your slowest privateer Porsche. And they'll do it (or delete the density reg entirely), if they want to achieve your goals and conquering Australia.

And that's part of what I meant by destroying what they already had.

[ff s conscience]

I still think you're making too many assumptions and guesses.

YES, the beer swilling knuckledragging stereotypical bogan Ford/Holden V8 fans won't become GT fans, but I think you underestimate how many true car enthusiasts there are out there. People that have a thought of their own once in a while and actually have the wherewithall to choose for themselves what makes something appealing, rather than having it forced down their throats.

And no, a pro team cannot come along and bump out an existing competitor... it's a loyalty based program. Those that have been around can chose to stick around. Any pro teams would have to enter a car not already spoken for.

and that's the beauty of GT3... the cars are available, and essentialy paritised at birth.

[ff s conscience]

oh, and there are plenty of opinionated personalities in GT racing.

I don't think I mentioned that Ross Palmer was on the GT category arranged harbour cruise at Homebush event... was great to catch up. he's in fine form.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Yeah, but the point is, that in V8 Supercar a HRT Commodore is nothing like a Triple Eight Commodore or a Paul Morris Motorsport Commodore or Kelly Racing Commodore. .

WRONG

You may actually be right, BUT the ONLY Commodore that's any different (in my opinion which is the only one that counts) to the rest is the Kelly car, cos it sounds different due to their exhaust... and good on them. they have my support for that reason alone! (Plus their shop is within a 100 yards from mine )

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

I still think you're making too many assumptions and guesses.

YES, the beer swilling knuckledragging stereotypical bogan Ford/Holden V8 fans won't become GT fans, but I think you underestimate how many true car enthusiasts there are out there. People that have a thought of their own once in a while and actually have the wherewithall to choose for themselves what makes something appealing, rather than having it forced down their throats.

And you've misunderstood one of the basics of entertainment of any variety. Getting the fans, whether they are "knuckle dragging V8 fans" or "suave sophisticated sports car fans", is not really that important because the fans are only ever going to make up maybe at the most 10% of your audience. Even if as you insist I've underestimated the number of GT fans then I guess we can (very) generously say 20% of your target audience. You have to make an impression on the general public who are not fans and never will be fans, but won't mind every now and then switching on the TV or travelling to a race meeting.

Whether its sport, or television, or films, or stage the challenge is always the same, appealing to those who aren't fans and getting their attention.

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

And no, a pro team cannot come along and bump out an existing competitor... it's a loyalty based program. Those that have been around can chose to stick around. Any pro teams would have to enter a car not already spoken for.

and that's the beauty of GT3... the cars are available, and essentialy paritised at birth.

And that policy will have to be torn up or the pros won't come. You won't be able to dictate to the pro-teams who they can't have professioonal relationships with. Their attitude will not be, Porsche is full we have to say sorry to Porsche and court Lotus, because everyone else is courting Lotus and Lotus is saying no. The better option is to get AGT to change the rules. Remember Allan Moffat's Mazda RX-7s? The principal is exactly the same, as would be the result.

And the flaws in the parity system have just yet to be exposed. Seriously, how could they unless each successive model of Porsche is eactly the same speed as the previous. How do you balance one against each other year to year? How do you make each manufacturer faster at the same rate. The flaws and differences might be small, but once discovered everyone would have to get on board or fall behind.

And if the pro-team had a sufficiently good deal, then they could whisper the phrase 'restraint of trade' in the right ear.

[ff s conscience]

Sports and GT fans are not necessarily suave and sophisticated... they may just be teenagers, like I was, with Testarossa and Countach posters on my wall... I never had pictures of everyday family cars like Falcon/Commodore, I never dreamed that that one day I might own a car like my nanna takes shopping.

And when I DID happen to own a car like my nanna takes shopping, I never once thought it was a race car!

The GT teams can be just as entertaining as V8 teams, given the same air time and level of expertise... and they can do it with interesting cars, rather than Falcadores.


NO, the pro teams will have to enter a car that is available, at least initially. Once they establish themselves maybe they can involve/buy out/incorporate a team that runs their chosen car..

BUT in theory, it doesn't matter what car they run. All GT3 cars are roughly the same speed...... it's the drivers and team prep and tactics and luck that separate them on the track.

In fact it would be great if say SBR ran a Morgan, made it get good results for couple years, then sold it to a new entrant and moved into their chosen car.

[ff s conscience]

hmmmmm......... if you removed every Falcon and Commodore from public roads that was involved in hooning (lets assume this is young people thnking their cars are race cars, and lets further assume that they think they're a race car cos that what they see on telly), what would that do to the crash/death stats?

Most people that can afford Sports and GT cars, have grown out of hooning by then..... the world (ok, maybe Parramatta or Noble Park) would be a safer place.




Now all I gotta do is cure cancer.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

And that policy will have to be torn up or the pros won't come. You won't be able to dictate to the pro-teams who they can't have professioonal relationships with..

WRONG

The pro teams would come if the TV airtime was there, and they could market a return to their sponsors.

You need a more mercenary/cynical outlook Falc ol boy!

Pro teams would race snails if there was money in it.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

And if the pro-team had a sufficiently good deal, then they could whisper the phrase 'restraint of trade' in the right ear.

Haha!

So what about Ford/Holden then!

There's only 2 cars allowed in V8!

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

Haha!

So what about Ford/Holden then!

There's only 2 cars allowed in V8!

Who else tried? Who else wanted to? Which Pro-team had a manufacturer ready to back them up should the whsipering began?

V8 Supercar wasn't forced limited to two. Two was the entire market.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

WRONG

The pro teams would come if the TV airtime was there, and they could market a return to their sponsors.

You can't have a chicken without an egg. The budget neccessary to buy that airtime does not exist.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

In fact it would be great if say SBR ran a Morgan, made it get good results for couple years, then sold it to a new entrant and moved into their chosen car.

SBR isn't going to run a Morgan without Morgans support. They'll do something else.

So your basically saying you don't want the Pro-teams now. But leaving that aside, do you really think all the teams currently racing in AGT who are winning races will stay if the Pro-teams arrive and push their wins into fifths, then tenths. And the guys currently finishing tenth, will they still be happy to race for 20th in a highly charged political environment of professional sport, or will they sell their cars and move to smaller scale, much more fun series, for oooh, say a Porsche GT3 only series. I mean heaven forfend that something like that might happen.

They could stay but eventually Super Australian GT Cars would say look you're not doing every round for geographical or business reasons so we'll create a series for you to race in sponsored by cameras or air-conditioners and you can race in that. Oh and from now on you can't buy or build your own cars because our pro-teams will need to onsell their cars to you.

Your entire plan seems dependant on a 100 million dollar sum arriving from nowhere in order to buy and create everything you're writing mental cheques for. Buy the airtime, buy the marketting, buy the big dollar events, set up a Bathurst 24 Hour, create a presence with Joe Public and then everyone will come.

This isn't about the violins, this is about the scale of what is required.

[HarvestMotorspt]

Commodores trying to look like race cars??
Funniest thing Ive seen this year!
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Holden-Commod...item3ef9519d13

[Crash Test]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

People don't buy Lady Gaga CDs in huge volumes just because she's a good singer, she also has a personality that fascinates people. AGT is faceless in that regard.

I hate to drag this one up.... but wow.... ummmm....... ummmmmm......





Are you saying AGT should court Lady Gaga as a potential driver??

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Crash Test

I hate to drag this one up.... but wow.... ummmm....... ummmmmm......





Are you saying AGT should court Lady Gaga as a potential driver??

No. But AGT isn't selling CDs. What sort of public profile do AGT drivers have? Who is going to stage AGT's 'shriek at the creek'.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

SBR isn't going to run a Morgan without Morgans support. They'll do something else.

So your basically saying you don't want the Pro-teams now. But leaving that aside, do you really think all the teams currently racing in AGT who are winning races will stay if the Pro-teams arrive and push their wins into fifths, then tenths. And the guys currently finishing tenth, will they still be happy to race for 20th in a highly charged political environment of professional sport, or will they sell their cars and move to smaller scale, much more fun series, for oooh, say a Porsche GT3 only series. I mean heaven forfend that something like that might happen.

They could stay but eventually Super Australian GT Cars would say look you're not doing every round for geographical or business reasons so we'll create a series for you to race in sponsored by cameras or air-conditioners and you can race in that. Oh and from now on you can't buy or build your own cars because our pro-teams will need to onsell their cars to you.

Your entire plan seems dependant on a 100 million dollar sum arriving from nowhere in order to buy and create everything you're writing mental cheques for. Buy the airtime, buy the marketting, buy the big dollar events, set up a Bathurst 24 Hour, create a presence with Joe Public and then everyone will come.

This isn't about the violins, this is about the scale of what is required.

who says Morgan won't support a team here?

No, I'm saying pro temas SHOULD come, but play fair... which means do it FIA style. It's MUCH cheaper than running custom home built specials. (as develoment is drastically reduced)

I know for fact that Ted (and me) would happily come tenth if we were beaten by 9 professionals. We like to gauge ourselves to the best benchmark available. I've won with Simonsen (and Noske, Baird, McConville, Bowe etc), I know how it's done. I'm happy with where I'm at. But YES, unfortunately, it seems the ego of others is the stumbling block.

and NO. I don't have a plan. I have opinion based in involvement. And it doesn't cost anything like those figures. You need to think differently. V8 is crazy expensive, it can be done MUCH more cost effectively. team crew size need only be 4 or 5 in GT racing, 10 at the most in endurance events.

and NO, Bathurst 24 hour is a waste of budget. A nice 3 hour race would be fine.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

who says Morgan won't support a team here?

No, I'm saying pro temas SHOULD come, but play fair... which means do it FIA style. It's MUCH cheaper than running custom home built specials. (as develoment is drastically reduced)

I know for fact that Ted (and me) would happily come tenth if we were beaten by 9 professionals. We like to gauge ourselves to the best benchmark available. I've won with Simonsen (and Noske, Baird, McConville, Bowe etc), I know how it's done. I'm happy with where I'm at. But YES, unfortunately, it seems the ego of others is the stumbling block.

and NO. I don't have a plan. I have opinion based in involvement. And it doesn't cost anything like those figures. You need to think differently. V8 is crazy expensive, it can be done MUCH more cost effectively. team crew size need only be 4 or 5 in GT racing, 10 at the most in endurance events.

and NO, Bathurst 24 hour is a waste of budget. A nice 3 hour race would be fine.

V8 Supercar is definately crazy expensive. Problem is teams now have huge professional crews and V8 Supercar actually don't really want to create a situation where the sport has to send 100 mechanics and engineers to the dole cue. V8 Supercar's biggest dilemma, the easiest way to cut costs is to cut jobs. The fattest part of a teams budget is salaries, not just the drivers but the star engineers too.

I want to think differently. I have goals I want to achieve in the sport. But the budget available to me couldn't even be measured in the thousands. Differently is the only way I can make headway at all.

[Rob Bailey]

Sports car need the bash.
Bring back the biff and bash.

[ff s conscience]

Thanks Rob

You bring so much to any conversation!