2009 Australian Sports & GT Championships

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

ok.... so how important are crowd levels...

which promoters would prefer a gent only series over a pro/am

Clipsal.... AGP.... Surfers.... Without pros.... forget it. Promoters will not be interested if they think there is no crowd pull.

Stick a few names in the mix.... and they'll go for it.

Without pro's on the grid, GT's will lose track time to poxy Mini's and Utes and other utterly pointless race series.

GT is an interesting and viable product...... but only if it is made as appealing as it can be.

Without pro's it's just not sustainable.

With the economy on jelly legs, any available sponsor money can be made to go a LOT further in GT's than it can in V8, Utes, or Carrera Cup.... or even Mini.

Crowd levels at Shannons National events??? C'mon!...it's not even in the top 5 items of focus for this promoter. Clipsal, Surfers and AGP, the crowds aren't there to see GT, the entrants pay large to go and play at these 'marquee' events with the big categories and consequently get a good audience.

Crowd pull is a very distant second to entry fees, category fees and TV fees...get enough entrants over several categories and it doesn't really matter if only 2 men and a dog turn up in the stands.

Promoters couldn't give a stuff who's driving the thing, they only count the numbers on the grid...fullstop.

Yes, GT is an interesting and viable product. Don't think anyone would argue that, the main beef on this thread seems to be with many aspects of the management of the category.

Pro's do make it interesting, but whats not sustainable is lack of manufacturer support $$$...otherwise the Huglins of the world are the only ones who can keep it afloat.

I think the other categories would argue their case for sponsorship just as strongly.

...not saying I agree with GT about the pro's, its just another example of the self-serving nature of the management.

[ff s conscience]

you've missed my point.

To get on the card for Clipsal, AGP and Surfers, you've gotta have an interesting product... surely?... whether or not it ACTUALLY draws a crowd, it should at least SOUND interesting...

Without pro's in GT's, most promoters would rather have a carnage derby like utes, mini's and to some extent Carrera cup..... rather than a load of gents racing?????

[deano2]

it would seem the gent racers of gt are only prepared to race if they can win.....eliminate real competition so i can kid myself iam a winner....its a shallow victory!

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by deano2

it would seem the gent racers of gt are only prepared to race if they can win.....eliminate real competition so i can kid myself iam a winner....its a shallow victory!

You miss the point totally and got it all the wrong way around--it is the pro's that are only prepared to race if they can win-or are being paid to be there. The best cars,best financed etc and for the pro the best sponsor in motorsport --OPM ( other peoples money).Not to many prepared to be part of anything unless there is something in it for them and preferably with all the cards stacked in their favour.
Do anything that makes a more level playing field and listen to pro's bleat. Pro's quite happy to show what a genius he is and lap the field to show off his "talent" and destroy the series in the process .

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

You miss the point totally and got it all the wrong way around--it is the pro's that are only prepared to race if they can win-or are being paid to be there. The best cars,best financed etc and for the pro the best sponsor in motorsport --OPM ( other peoples money).Not to many prepared to be part of anything unless there is something in it for them and preferably with all the cards stacked in their favour.
Do anything that makes a more level playing field and listen to pro's bleat. Pro's quite happy to show what a genius he is and lap the field to show off his "talent" and destroy the series in the process .

Or........... don't let the pros in and make the whole series a shrine to mediocrity. Has to be a better way then no points and no interest for the pros - even success ballast (which is often a flog) is better than some great cars effectively being tooled around. Good to see at least some of them being really pushed.

Maybe the Carrera Cup way of having a "series within a series" for the non pros is worth looking at?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Not to many prepared to be part of anything unless there is something in it for them and preferably with all the cards stacked in their favour.
Do anything that makes a more level playing field and listen to pro's bleat. Pro's quite happy to show what a genius he is and lap the field to show off his "talent" and destroy the series in the process .

Silver, being a pro driver with ability does not equate to an uneven playing field.

If a series is destroyed by the best driver winning, there are larger problems at hand. This is racing, let them race.

Agree with Tourer, holding a Seeded Champion and a non seeded champion makes the most sense.

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Silver, being a pro driver with ability does not equate to an uneven playing field.

If a series is destroyed by the best driver winning, there are larger problems at hand. This is racing, let them race.

Agree with Tourer, holding a Seeded Champion and a non seeded champion makes the most sense.

'This is racing, let them race'....some of you blokes live in an alternate universe! Should be off playing dungeons and dragons throwing around so much fantasy. Who's going to pay for your dreamtime?...the pro's???. A lot of them I count as mates, but when it comes to motorsport, they all have a big dose of WIFM.

Get used to the so-called gentleman driver taking up his option as the OPM sponsor is not making an appearance for a while. If you don't like it, I'm sure you not paying at the gate won't make a bit of difference as the entrant is the real backbone in the Aust. national motorsport scene. Anyone who says its the punter is on drugs.

Again, not saying I like it or agree with GT on this one, just recognising the reality.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

You miss the point totally and got it all the wrong way around--it is the pro's that are only prepared to race if they can win-or are being paid to be there. The best cars,best financed etc and for the pro the best sponsor in motorsport --OPM ( other peoples money).Not to many prepared to be part of anything unless there is something in it for them and preferably with all the cards stacked in their favour.
Do anything that makes a more level playing field and listen to pro's bleat. Pro's quite happy to show what a genius he is and lap the field to show off his "talent" and destroy the series in the process .

John.... what utter crap.

How long has JB raced in V8's without a win?
How many V8 races has Simonsen won?
How many has Bairdo won?

Would ALL of those guys drive again in a SERIOUS series if they doubted they had a chance of winning...?

OF COURSE THEY WOULD.

John, you're a bitter and cynical man.

And wrong.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

John.... what utter crap.

How long has JB raced in V8's without a win?
How many V8 races has Simonsen won?
How many has Bairdo won?

Would ALL of those guys drive again in a SERIOUS series if they doubted they had a chance of winning...?

OF COURSE THEY WOULD.

John, you're a bitter and cynical man.

And wrong.

I think you might find they were getting paid to be there.
They are not(put your mind back to the bleating-including your own) when previous attempts were made to prevent runaway victories in the desire to make a more level playing field and keep some interest in the racing.The attitude you promote has only self interest at heart.
Do not mistake my view as being in any way derogotary as to the abilities of Alan-- he has raced hard and well at any level he has competed at-- and personally I have no problem with that-I admire his approach to what he does. In particular , he has run at all levels here locally and has not shirked exposing himself , that is not common amongst some other so called local 'pro"s".
The are professional series all around the world and plenty of opportunity in Australia for pro's to race-- what there is no place for series destroying in equality. When a Pro wants to spend HIS money going racing-i have no problem with that. Other people spend their lives working to be able to afford to go racing- the Pro spends his time racing on OPM-- their is a fundamental difference that creates an inequality.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

.The attitude you promote has only self interest at heart.
.

errr.. well OF COURSE!

I am motivated to learn from and work with and once in a while help people better than myself.

It's the only way forward.

I've been lucky enough to work with many pro's, and YES, if Pro's were forced out of GT's, I'd happily stand down and watch occasionally rather than spend my precious weekends away from my family.

I CERTAINLY wouldn't bother racing any car I may one day own in a National GT series, that had no pro drivers to compare myself to.

I might wobble around at 3/4 pace in a state round though.

There IS "someone" here with a thinly veiled self interest though......

Do you not understand that some people LIKE having pro's around. And that they are HAPPY to pay a less than reasonable sum for that priviledge?

It's a combination of education and recreation.... something we all pay way too much for outside of motorsport.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

what there is no place for series destroying in equality. When a Pro wants to spend HIS money going racing-i have no problem with that. Other people spend their lives working to be able to afford to go racing- the Pro spends his time racing on OPM-- their is a fundamental difference that creates an inequality.

Why is that inequality? For someone who has spent the better half of 4 years screaming inclusion for all, this latest outburst is a fair change of tact.

If someone eg. Huglin, Maranello Motorsport ect is prepared to finance a ride for Simonsen, Baird, Bowe, Davison, Hackett thats an extra car and the championship is the better for it.

At the end of the day whether a team is paying or the driver doesnt make a difference to the results or how much more speed they have will have over other competitors, if that is the concern.

[Silver 3]

FF in your attempts to rationalise your opinion your haste confuses what might be my opinion and views with what I am saying. This is not a simple topic and what I have posted may seem to support what GT management is doing-- I think history shows that I am not exactly uncritical of whatever they do. That said--what I have put into words is pretty much what a lot of competitors and potential competitors of GT say,have said or are thinking that way.
The positive aspects raised re Pro invovement are all reasonable arguements-- but the promoter of the event-- in this case GT management-- are between a rock and a hard place on this. If you read Sheep Stations comments again I think you see a hard nosed reality expressed about the Pro's relevence. In the end--it becomes where and to whom the promoter is pitching the series- and the reality is that without the well meaning "self funders" there would not be a series.So it is hardly unreasonable that the GT management is listening to that and the rationale behind it.

[Sheep Stations]

Silver, exactly the point(s) I was trying to get across.

ff, Bairdo would drive a mark 1 Zephyr donated by a cuzzie-bro if there was a quid in it. He's won/done everything in his career, now its about $$$

[Oldtony]

This is all starting to sound like a conversation in the Long Room at Lords.
Gentlemen and Players? Never do old chap, can't have them mix Y'know.

[ff s conscience]

silver, after a backflip like that, you should see a chiropractor.

sheep... actually, In my experience, you're wrong about Bairdo.... He might only drive a (yawn) Porsche for money though

[ff s conscience]

But getting back on topic....

the series is fragile in this country...

The gents are drawn to series by what, exactly? The chance to race their car?... They can do that in many places, and often much cheaper...

They like the NATIONAL SERIES Idea...? But what makes a National series attractive....?

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

silver, after a backflip like that, you should see a chiropractor.

sheep... actually, In my experience, you're wrong about Bairdo.... He might only drive a (yawn) Porsche for money though

A weird, morbid curiosity would be his only reason to step out of a Porsche

...but it would still only be if there was a dollar in it. No criticism of Bairdo, he's just a pragmatic businessman when it comes to motor sport on top of being one of this countries best drivers (and NZ).

[Skid Marks]

Looks to me like the Carlton Crew have looked over the fence and seen (some) reality.

Anyway, I want to enter Clipsal and the GP. Have entries opened?

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Skid Marks

Looks to me like the Carlton Crew have looked over the fence and seen (some) reality.

Anyway, I want to enter Clipsal and the GP. Have entries opened?

Have you won tattslotto?

[noaxetogrind]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Have you won tattslotto?

I never thought it was the cost of entry that turned Skid marks off GT. Thought it was more a case of wanting to be in a race he could win that saw him start the new series for Porsches?

[rich07]

Was just looking at French site Endurance-Info and they have an article about Teulan's Mosler being packed before being flown over to Australia.
One point of curiousity was this

The first Australian buyer of a Mosler GT3 is John Teulan, the Statewide GT Racing team, which was previously run of Ferrari. For now, the team has acquired two cars. Note that the engine of the Chevy Mosler will rebadgé as Holden.

A mistake in translation perhaps?? I can't see why the Chevrolet engine in the Mosler would be rebranded as Holden. And does anyone know who might be driving the second car?

[GTRMagic]

Its an LS7 engine aboard isnt it? So why not a Holden branding... maybe they should take it to HSV for some tickling?

[rich07]

I'm just curious as to why John Teulan would bother, seeing as though Holden have nothing to do with this though (unless I'm missing something here ) And yes its an LS7 but then again most people would recognise it as a Chev engine not a Holden V8, just look at the number of LS1/2/3 powered Holdens/HSVs getting around with aftermarket Chev badges on them these days.

[Skid Marks]

Originally Posted by noaxetogrind

I never thought it was the cost of entry that turned Skid marks off GT. Thought it was more a case of wanting to be in a race he could win that saw him start the new series for Porsches?

Oh, how I debated on responding ...

Not sure whether its a barb or a bouquet for poor old Skid.

In any event, you're right and wrong at the same time. There were wins in GT and life was actually pretty good there until they distorted the picture or utility of the core customer.

As for the decision to go it alone, that ones been done to death on another thread.

[Skid Marks]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Have you won tattslotto?

I take it the cost would, in marketing terms, be a possible barrier to entry?

I thought last years fees were OK given the venues and bill.