Group A Holden Commodores in Europe

[KA]

Originally Posted by racer69

Also, seems we are no closer to figuring out where the European Commodore's came from or went to

I wonder if the HDT cars used in the ETCC in '86 are part of the answer to this- as we know, one of them at least was still in Europe in September to be used as the GM Dealer Sport entry for Cleland/Woodman at the TT...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antspho...7608209176086/

...but after the TT, what happened to this one? Shipped back to Australia or sold on in Europe?

[chunterer]

Indeed, some further progress would be good. I remember convincing myself at the time that Woodman used the TT to decide if he wanted to buy the car to run in the 1987 BTCC or maybe even in the ETCC prepared by Dave Cook or something? Maybe they were even trying to tempt Vauxhall/GM to get involved in supporting such an entry for '87?

Ok it didn't happen but I bet it was a serious possibility?

[drivers71]

The Peter Hanson Commodore, which featured in the support race to the International Trophy on 07 April 1974:

[drivers71]

The Grice/Galvin Holden at the 1986 Tourist Trophy:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...07SSTT-106.jpg

and the Covey/Jeffrey Commodore at the 1987 TT:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...06SSTT-102.jpg

[Blazerteam]

There are 2 or 3 Holden Commodores here in Norway.They have been used in asphalt racing in the nineties,and i dont know where they are now.One seems to get used in Rallycross.Link..

http://www.hjort-sorensen.no/romnesl...1samleside.htm

Scroll down on this link..

http://www.motorsportavisen.no/Nyhet...3%20eldre.html

[KA]

Funny you should mention rallycross. It's been mentioned before early in the thread, with at least one pic, but the Belgian 'Car Glass' team ran a Commodore in European rallycross events at the end of the 80's/early 90's.

Looking through some old pics, I noticed that it seems to have been campaigned with both the 'Walkinshaw' bodykit and as a 'regular' VL. These two pics had got separated from the sets they belong to, so I'm not 100% of the timeline, but the pics with the full TWR bodykit are presumably Jaak Franssen in the car in 1991. I won't swear to this without digging out my old race programmes for these two meetings, but I think the VL pic might be a year later in 1992- perhaps the team found the full aero kit was too fragile for rallycross?

[Jesper OH]

http://www.fanderallycross.com/1992N...2EuropeFIA.htm

Fraansen did a fairly good job with an ungainly car. Remember him from the Screen Sport covering of the European Rallycross championship, seeing him winning the odd heat, but a B-finalist at best it seems from the point score.

It has been mentioned somewhere that the Commodore was always "under tyred", being limited to 11" tyres by the early 1990s. Rallycross had an even stricter general limit of 250 mm/slightly less than 10".

Jesper

[johnh875]

The second picture KA posted has the Walkinshaw front spoiler ("de-beaked" ie lower lip removed) with the Brock Group A bonnet scoop and rear spoiler

[KA]

Originally Posted by johnh875

The second picture KA posted has the Walkinshaw front spoiler ("de-beaked" ie lower lip removed) with the Brock Group A bonnet scoop and rear spoiler

I'm glad you mentioned that.....Very curious...I wonder if it was regularly campaigned in this state or whether it was just a temporary situation after some bodywork damage

I'm not sure what this says about the standard of eligibility scrutineering in the ERC in the early 90's....

[johnh875]

Well I can't see there being any advantage using the earlier parts, perhaps they were more quickly & easily to hand than sending for something from the other side of the world. When the cars were used as daily drivers it was common to remove the lower lip of the front spoiler to avoid removing it whilst driving - I expect rallycross would give it an even shorter lifespan

[KA]

Originally Posted by johnh875

Well I can't see there being any advantage using the earlier parts, perhaps they were more quickly & easily to hand than sending for something from the other side of the world. When the cars were used as daily drivers it was common to remove the lower lip of the front spoiler to avoid removing it whilst driving - I expect rallycross would give it an even shorter lifespan

That's what puzzles me- I can understand the team removing the lip of the front spoiler, running the car with either the earlier 'Brock' VL spoiler, or without the side skirts if they were running short of these parts in the rough and tumble of a rallycross meeting, but it's the use of the earlier 'Brock' rear spoiler and bonnet scoop etc that throws me....

I've seen earlier pics of the car, and they're always in 'Walkinshaw' trim, so unless I've got my timescales seriously mixed up, it seems to have reverted to a 'sort-of-Brock VL' spec later in it's rallycross career.

As you suggest, the only thing I can think of is that a shortage of parts, maybe when repairing the car after a fairly significant shunt meant they needed to use the 'Brock' bodywork for a time

[terrier1102]

Reading this thread reminded me of the ETC when i was a teenager, I don't remember the year but brock and grice were at Monza and the rover SD1s
I was lucky enough to be a sound recordist with Hay Fisher and we were filming the ETC for an Australian network, i remember Grice took a dislike to Walkinshaw and at Monza we were in the Pits filming the driver changeovers, Walkinshaw had been chased by grice for many laps and when he came in "I think?" to let Percy takeover he got out the car and I would say he was looking very anxious, almost frightened, he explained; it seems that whilst flat out on the back straight Grice had been ramming the Rover and pushing it along lap after lap, a little unsettling at 150+ mph, Walkinshaw couldn't underdstand it but you could tell grice was really enjoying himself.

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by racer69

Two made it to Europe for Australian teams, but where did the likes of the Serge Power Commodore's come from? Could they have purchased them of TWR (who had a brace of VK's & VL's at the start of 1987 in anticipation of a WTCC assault until Bernie stepped in)

Wouldn't be surprised if Serge Power actually build this car them selve. They had a history of running Group 2 and A Chevrolet Camaros and one of two Mercedes-Benz 450 SLC, so another V8 would fit the bill.

Jesper

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by terrier1102

Reading this thread reminded me of the ETC when i was a teenager, I don't remember the year but brock and grice were at Monza and the rover SD1s
I was lucky enough to be a sound recordist with Hay Fisher and we were filming the ETC for an Australian network, i remember Grice took a dislike to Walkinshaw and at Monza we were in the Pits filming the driver changeovers, Walkinshaw had been chased by grice for many laps and when he came in "I think?" to let Percy takeover he got out the car and I would say he was looking very anxious, almost frightened, he explained; it seems that whilst flat out on the back straight Grice had been ramming the Rover and pushing it along lap after lap, a little unsettling at 150+ mph, Walkinshaw couldn't underdstand it but you could tell grice was really enjoying himself.

Would have been 1986. Interestingly when Win Percy was sent out to Australia by Walkinshaw to establish the Holden Racing Team in 1990, Percy picked Grice as his Bathurst co-driver having driven with him at Bathurst in 87 & 88 in Commodores and in the 88 ETCC in a Nissan Skyline. Apparently there were raised eyebrows back at TWR. But the choice was justified when with Percy carrying an injury, Grice did the lion's share of the driving on their way to an unlikely victory.

[johnh875]

I gather "raised eyebrows" would be putting it mildly!

[Graz]

Re Gricey, why was he seemingly so thought badly of? I thought he was a decent driver, if a bit hard on the machinery - compare the in car gearchanges of the Commodore in 1990 when Percy is driving and then Grice.

I always like Gricey, came across as a decent bloke. Maybe he wasn't pc or something?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Graz

Re Gricey, why was he seemingly so thought badly of?

It's not that he was badly thought of generally speaking.

See terrier1102's post.....

[Graz]

Originally Posted by chunterer

It's not that he was badly thought of generally speaking.

See terrier1102's post.....

Ah...would help had I read this right enough!

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

I believe that Allan Grice's Les Small built 87 car was sold by Roadways Racing to TWR and shipped to the UK for use in developing the fuel injected car.

Les Small tells me that he (Roadways) never sold a car to TWR but did supply components.

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by drivers71

The Grice/Galvin Holden at the 1986 Tourist Trophy:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...07SSTT-106.jpg

and the Covey/Jeffrey Commodore at the 1987 TT:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...06SSTT-102.jpg

Is there the suggestion that the Grice/Galvin VK became the Covey/Jeffrey VL?

[KA]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Is there the suggestion that the Grice/Galvin VK became the Covey/Jeffrey VL?

I wouldn't have thought so- AFAIK, I think we've worked on the assumption throughout the thread (and I'm sure I always thought it was the case back in '87) that the Grice VK used in Europe became the Mike O'Brien 1987 BTCC VK.

I won't swear to it without checking dates, but the last BTCC round was generally at Silverstone and at least a couple of weeks after the TT, so the Grice/O'Brien car would have still been in VK form on TT weekend.

The Covey/Jeffrey car was either leased from, or the drivers bought rides with, a Belgian team-(Serge Power I think?)- the 'Playboy'-liveried car had been used earlier in the season by Jeroen Hin, at Spa and a couple of early-season ETCC/WTCC rounds, and might have started the season as a VK- I'd have to look that up to be sure?

[KA]

Just re-read the thread, and this is a brief recap of where we're at with Group A Commodores in Europe in 86/87, and the main questions raised by them.

I'll come back to '88 later...

1986
Grice/Roadways- 1 car for most or all of the ETCC season, shared with Graeme Bailey, later with Michel Delcourt, Mark Galvin, David Kennedy etc.
Car sold to Clive Faine/Linden Racing/Mike O'Brien for 1987 BTCC

Brock/Mobil HDT- 1 car in the first few ETCC rounds for Brock/Moffatt. Return at Spa with a new car, the original being run as a second entry.

GM Dealer Sport- one of the Brock/HDT pair appears as a 'GMDS' entry at Silverstone for Cleland/Woodman.

Do the two HDT cars then go back to Australia, or do either stay in Europe- and if so, what happens to it/them?


1987

Mike O'Brien/Linden Racing- ex-Grice VK run in the BTCC by Alan Docking Racing. Subsequently seems to have been sold on (1988/9?), possibly to Chris Maries.

Where did it go after that?

Allan Moffatt- single Rothmans/ANZ-backed HDT-built VL in the first few rounds of the WTCC plus Spa. Car returned to Australia- apparently now owned by a collector, still in Rothmans colours?

Brock- single VL comes over for Spa. Car returns to Australia, possibly used as the team's spare car late in the ATCC season, and as the second-string #10 car at Bathurst

Serge Power- 2xVL used in a mixture of ETCC/WTCC rounds. One for Michel Delcourt/Alex Guyaux/others, appears at the Nurburgring WTCC round, Spa and the TT
The second, for Jeroen Hin with Playboy sponsorship is seen at the Zolder ETCC race, Spa and for Vic Covey/Andrew Jeffrey at the TT

What is the origin of these two cars,and where do they subsequently go?

TWR- According to footage in an Australian TV report from March '87, as many as 4-5 cars, a mix of VKs and VLs...
1-2x VK- Never raced by TWR, but a photo of a white VK testing is published in Autosport.
1-2x VL- one raced at the Nurburgring WTCC. One of these (chassis 022?) becomes the blue/yellow Herbie Clips 'Evolution' VL which debuts in qualifying for the Birmingham BTCC race, then at the TT before going to Australia for Bathurst.

If there are other TWR Commodores built, but not raced in '87, then what happens to them?

Elkron- an Elkron-backed Commodore appears at the final ETCCround at Nogaro for Jarier/Barlesi. Did they just lease one of the Serge Power cars, or is this a different car altogether?

[KA]

1988

Mike O'Brien/Alan Docking Racing. ADR run a VL for O'Brien in the BTCC- the car is eventually updated to the TWR Evolution spec late season. It's strongly suggested in the thread that this isn't a rebuilt version the ex-Grice VK, but a different car- possibly of Brock/HDT origin?
O'Brien moves on to a Terry Drury RS500 for 1989, so what happens to the Commodore?

TWR. After several delays in homologation, the TWR Evo VL makes it's European debut in qualifying for the aborted Birmingham BTCC round. It then races at the TT, both times in Blue/Yellow 'Herbie Clips' colours, before going to Australia for Bathurst as the #20 HSV entry for Walkinshaw/Allam. Remains in Australia. May be TWR chassis '022'

I can't see any mention of other Commodore entries in the ETCC, from the results on http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jong/ but we know several cars are raced and rallycrossed in Europe up to the early 90's.
Can we match any of these up with the cars raced in 1987/8?

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by KA

Brock- single VL comes over for Spa. Car returns to Australia, possibly used as the team's spare car late in the ATCC season, and as the second-string #10 car at Bathurst

#10 from Bathurst '87 was converted to TWR injected spec and raced by motor racing journalist Chris Lambden in 1989 in Baurepaire's colours. Car is now owned by well known Australian collector David Bowden and has been completely restored to it's '87 Bathurst spec.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by KA

1988

TWR. After several delays in homologation, the TWR Evo VL makes it's European debut in qualifying for the aborted Birmingham BTCC round. It then races at the TT, both times in Blue/Yellow 'Herbie Clips' colours, before going to Australia for Bathurst as the #20 HSV entry for Walkinshaw/Allam. Remains in Australia. May be TWR chassis '022'

I believe the #20 from Bathurst '88 was also the winning #16 from Bathurst 1990. I'm told that car is now completely restored to it's 1990 Bathurst spec. and in the hands of a collector. I can't think of a car I want more in the world.