Sorry for Cheating - Bathurst 87

[peckstar]

A nostalgic Read

[Andy77]

Really a nice find . Thanks !

One sentence stands out though :

" Sometimes the rules are open to interpretation."

It isn't really different these days, is it ?

[Marcos WTF]

Good article-Thanks for posting it Peckstar. Just one more cheated up siera that should never been allowed to race in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Good article-Thanks for posting it Peckstar. Just one more cheated up siera that should never been allowed to race in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

No question it was cheated up Marcos - but that year it was the World Touring Car Championship from memory.

[Henry]

sounds like someone would be a walk-up start for the 12-Hour...

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Good article-Thanks for posting it Peckstar. Just one more cheated up siera that should never been allowed to race in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

I wonder if Walkinshaw & Perkins will now apologise for presenting illegal Commomdores at the '88 Great Race.

[Falcon GT]

Originally Posted by chavez

I wonder if Walkinshaw & Perkins will now apologise for presenting illegal Commomdores at the '88 Great Race.

I wonder if Walkinshaw/Goss is going to hand back the trophy for winning with the Jag considering it had two bladders in the fuel tank and a hose for the driver to blow one up at races end

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by Tourer

No question it was cheated up Marcos - but that year it was the World Touring Car Championship from memory.

Bathurst, yes- was the rest of the season? And it can't have been the WTCC ( sounds like some dodgy wrestling show) for all the Gp A era/farce years before and after 1987.

[Pro Racer]

great read.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Bathurst, yes- was the rest of the season? And it can't have been the WTCC ( sounds like some dodgy wrestling show) for all the Gp A era/farce years before and after 1987.

Here you can find more info about '87 WTCC:
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...87%20WTCC.html (Great website!!!)

[Just Do It!]

Peter Brock didn't eventually win in the 05 car though, did he?

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

Peter Brock didn't eventually win in the 05 car though, did he?

05 failed early in the race, so Peter stepped into car 10, as he was legally entitled to do under the rules of the day, at the second round of pit stops and drove it to victory.

[Just Do It!]

Thanks David. I was lead to be believe that his last victory wasn't in 05. Who was in the team that year? Brock and......because someone must of got dudded out of a Bathurst victory?

Wouldn't that turn you into an (mental) assylum seeker?

[DAVID PATERSON]

PB was entered with David Parsons in 05. Peter McLeod was entered with Jon Crooke in car 10. 05 failed before the first pit stop and PB contemplated jumping in to car 10 at that point, but then decided to leave Peter McLoed in the car as a reward for bringing significant funding to the cash strapped team.

Besides, due to the funding shortage in the wake of the divorce with Holden, car 10 was severely underprepared and not expected to last that long anyway. No one was more surprised than PB when the car made it to the seocnd pit stop, so he decided to jump in a have a red hot go. David Parsons took over when Brock pitted, but Jon Crooke missed out on a drive that day.

[paydirt]

Peter Brock - John Crooke were entered in #05.

David (Skippy) Parsons - Peter (Slick50) Mcleod were entered in #10....with Brock cross entered.

Kiwi-born John Crooke disappeared into oblivion after 1987, but reappeared some years later as a designer/fabricator of racing car simulators.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

Thanks David. I was lead to be believe that his last victory wasn't in 05. Who was in the team that year? Brock and......because someone must of got dudded out of a Bathurst victory?

Wouldn't that turn you into an (mental) assylum seeker?

The left out driver was former Formula 2 champ and most recently created of the Hypermax Superkarts and Hyperstimulator racing car simulator capsules, Jon Crooke.

Bathurst '87 on wikipedia

And for those willing to castigate Group A for personal reasons, cheating went on in every category, have a chat to some owners of front running Group C cars today and watch the chagrined smiles as they explain, or hint at the parts of their cars that don't conform to the regulations, look at the number of DSQ's in results lists of Bathurst in the 1960s and also bear in mind for much of the Group A era Holden, for all their posturing in the matter spent several years in Group A providing only a token effort at resistance. In 1985 and 1986 the Commodore was a race winner and a Bathurst winner, and again in 1990, but looking at 1987, 1988 and 1992 for example they weren't even trying, not enterring full seasons, bringing out half developed cars, sacking their factory supported teams, trying to assemble new teams with ownership and mangement of them centred in Europe.

At least the Sierra guys were Australian teams committed to supporting Australian racing, and for those who hated the Nissan GT-R, perhaps it needs to be pointed out that the Nissan GT-R was only dominant in Australia, everywhere else it was just one car among many. Their dominance here in Australia was due to Gibson Motor Sport being the best run, best funded, best prepared, most skillful team in the country than anything else. If they had had Sierras during the years they ran R31 Skylines Jim Richards would have won a few more championships. The only reason the R30 didnt win ATCC or Bathurst in 1987 is because in the former case the BMW M3 got more points for the same race positions and at Bathurst because Brock gained a lap on the Skylines in the pits when he shouldn't have because officialdom got the safety car procedure wrong.

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

PB was entered with David Parsons in 05. Peter McLeod was entered with Jon Crooke in car 10. 05 failed before the first pit stop and PB contemplated jumping in to car 10 at that point, but then decided to leave Peter McLoed in the car as a reward for bringing significant funding to the cash strapped team.

Besides, due to the funding shortage in the wake of the divorce with Holden, car 10 was severely underprepared and not expected to last that long anyway. No one was more surprised than PB when the car made it to the seocnd pit stop, so he decided to jump in a have a red hot go. David Parsons took over when Brock pitted, but Jon Crooke missed out on a drive that day.

You've obviously been following the sport for a long time. Thanks for the knowledge.

Would it be fear to say then that Jon Crooke and Phil Brock are the only two drivers whose names have been on race cars that won Bathurst, but they actually never got to drive a race lap, or certainly didn't get to finish the race as a driver?

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by paydirt

Peter Brock - John Crooke were entered in #05.

David (Skippy) Parsons - Peter (Slick50) Mcleod were entered in #10....with Brock cross entered.

Kiwi-born John Crooke disappeared into oblivion after 1987, but reappeared some years later as a designer/fabricator of racing car simulators.

Just one question, are you sure you aren't getting Jon Crooke mixed up with John Faulkner?

Faulkner is a Kiwi from Palmerston North for memory.

[PVDA]

1987 WTCC had rounds at Bathurst and Calder on consectutive weekends.

Calder used a combined National circuit as well as the Thunderdome banked track.

[Forda]

Mike Raymond did tell us on the telecast that the Ludwig/Niedzwiedz car had a touch of 'Klaus' about it

[paydirt]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

Would it be fear to say then that Jon Crooke and Phil Brock are the only two drivers whose names have been on race cars that won Bathurst, but they actually never got to drive a race lap

Jon Crooke wasn't cross entered in #10 in 1987....Therefore, neither his name or his body ever appeared on/in the car.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by paydirt

Jon Crooke wasn't cross entered in #10 in 1987....Therefore, neither his name or his body ever appeared on/in the car.

Err...Except on both sides of the #10 car, under the JH signage:

[gtcapri]

Funny thing is the cars ran in the same spec the following week at the Calder round, yet no protest was ever lodged over that race.

[chavez]

Neil Crompton was earmarked for the drive in the #10, but failed to get the required number of signatures on his license.

He drove at Sandown with Jon Crooke, but was replaced by McLeod at Bathurst.

I often wonder if the knockers of Group A were around at the time or base their beliefs on the propaganda from the anti Group A crowd.

There is no doubt that many of the commercial aspects of the sport during the Group A era left a lot to be desired.

But the racing was generally very good, the only dud ATCC year being '88 when DJR dominated.

The excitement in following the sport with the likes of Brock and Grice taking on the world (well, maybe just Europe) is absent from the current series and the anticipation for new cars to take to the track will never be replicated by a project blueprint formula.

My favourite year of touring car racing remains 1992, the last hurrah for Group A, which saw BMW, Holden, Ford and Nissan all take race victories.

The finish to the second heat race at Wanneroo, the last laps of the Sandown 500 and the emotion of the end of the ’92 Great Race remain to this day fresh in my mind, while I struggle to remember any V8 Supercar races with such clarity.

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

bear in mind for much of the Group A era Holden, for all their posturing in the matter spent several years in Group A providing only a token effort at resistance. In 1985 and 1986 the Commodore was a race winner and a Bathurst winner, and again in 1990, but looking at 1987, 1988 and 1992 for example they weren't even trying, not enterring full seasons, bringing out half developed cars, sacking their factory supported teams, trying to assemble new teams with ownership and mangement of them centred in Europe.

The 1985 Commodore was basically a road car with slicks. With no aerodynamic aids it was only Brock's brilliant driving that kept it anywhere near the front. By the beginning of 1986 the 500 upgraded versions as required by the Group A regs had been completed and in longer distance races the Commodore was competitive and was seen on the world stage with the ETCC campaign.

But the built for purpose M3s & Sierras in that arrived in 1987 were just in another league. I think anyone who objectively reads the story of the Brock Holden split will come to the conclusion that a parting of the ways had to happen, Brock was in cloud cuckoo land Holden had no real choice.

The 1988 effort appeared to be fairly serious, although hampered by the TWR car not able to debut until the enduros until the 500 road going examples were built. Agree that skipping the 1989 ATCC wasn't a great PR move, but in reality the way the regs were they were going to be lapped by the Sierras.

Agree running a skeleton campaign in 1992 was a blunder.

At least the Sierra guys were Australian teams committed to supporting Australian racing, and for those who hated the Nissan GT-R, perhaps it needs to be pointed out that the Nissan GT-R was only dominant in Australia, everywhere else it was just one car among many. Their dominance here in Australia was due to Gibson Motor Sport being the best run, best funded, best prepared, most skillful team in the country than anything else. If they had had Sierras during the years they ran R31 Skylines Jim Richards would have won a few more championships. The only reason the R30 didnt win ATCC or Bathurst in 1987 is because in the former case the BMW M3 got more points for the same race positions and at Bathurst because Brock gained a lap on the Skylines in the pits when he shouldn't have because officialdom got the safety car procedure wrong.

I think it was the building of cars to suit the regulations, firstly the RS500 and later the GT-R that ultimately brought Group A undone. In its formative years there was a variety of cars that could win but from 1988 picking the winner became all too predictable.