Sorry for Cheating - Bathurst 87

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by paydirt

Jon Crooke wasn't cross entered in #10 in 1987....Therefore, neither his name or his body ever appeared on/in the car.

According to the photo above, his name was on the car. Apparently, he and Phil Brock are the only 2 drivers in Bathurst history to have their name on the winning race car and not actually turned a single race lap.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by paydirt

Peter Brock - John Crooke were entered in #05.

David (Skippy) Parsons - Peter (Slick50) Mcleod were entered in #10....with Brock cross entered.

No, Brock/Parsons were entered in #05, Crooke/McLoed in #10.

Parsons was driving #05 when it broke. Both he and Brock then jumped in #10 at the expense of Crooke, similiarly to what happened in 1983, when Brock & Perkins jumped into #25 at the expense of Phil Brock

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Just one more cheated up siera that should never been allowed to race in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

You would be of the opinion then that the likes of Moffat's BOSS Mustang, Bob Jane's Camaro, Ian Geoghegan's Mustangs, Kevin Bartlett's Camaro etc etc had no place racing here??

Originally Posted by chavez

Neil Crompton was earmarked for the drive in the #10, but failed to get the required number of signatures on his license.

He drove at Sandown with Jon Crooke, but was replaced by McLeod at Bathurst.

The legend goes that Crompton was 1 signature short to compete at Bathurst & had supposedly turned down a drive in the Winton 6hr a few weeks earlier, in an uncompetitive Subaru. Had he taken the drive it would have given him the extra signature.

He did compete at Rd9 at Calder (with McLeod) a week later & then Rd10 at Wellington after that with David Oxton, so the signature eventually came through.

[Just Do It!]

Thanks for the history, Racer. And Phil and Jon are the only two drivers to have a car win at Bathurst with their name on it and they hadn't turned a single racing lap.

I'm not trying to discredit Peter Brock, just trying to clarify if what I have been told is correct.

Thanks in advance for whatever you can offer

[Kingair]

The only downside, was that Brocky never got to stand on the podium for his ninth victory.

I had the opportunity to have a stickybeak at the dodgy Sierra's when they were transitting through Tullamarine airport, prior to being shipped back to Germany.

Why did Neil Crompton require the signatures in his licence to drive at Bathurst, was it due to FAI regulations?

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by Kingair

Why did Neil Crompton require the signatures in his licence to drive at Bathurst, was it due to FAI regulations?

IIRC he was one start short of the number required for an international licence which was a pre-requisite for the WTCC.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

But the built for purpose M3s & Sierras in that arrived in 1987 were just in another league. I think anyone who objectively reads the story of the Brock Holden split will come to the conclusion that a parting of the ways had to happen, Brock was in cloud cuckoo land Holden had no real choice.

I think that thing that didn't help Holden in 1987 was that CAMS lengthened the championship races by some margin, which affected the Commodore's most of all due due to their weight.

Perkins, Grice & even Brock were quite strong that year, particularly early on. Perkins had the speed to win the first round, Grice was dominating Symmons Plains until mechanical failure, while Brock was third at Symmons and got a front row berth at Lakeside.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

....and for those who hated the Nissan GT-R, perhaps it needs to be pointed out that the Nissan GT-R was only dominant in Australia, everywhere else it was just one car among many. Their dominance here in Australia was due to Gibson Motor Sport being the best run, best funded, best prepared, most skillful team in the country than anything else. If they had had Sierras during the years they ran R31 Skylines Jim Richards would have won a few more championships. The only reason the R30 didnt win ATCC or Bathurst in 1987 is because in the former case the BMW M3 got more points for the same race positions and at Bathurst because Brock gained a lap on the Skylines in the pits when he shouldn't have because officialdom got the safety car procedure wrong.

In fact, the Skyline- in all it's Group A forms- was almost a purely Australian and Japanese phenomenon- apart from the Gibson cars, they were only really widely raced at home in Japan.

IIRC the only Group A Skyline ever seen in Europe was the Howard Marsden/NME R31 that Grice shared with Win Percy in a few European races in 1988. Apart from that the most successful- and almost the only- European Nissan effort was probably Graham Goode's privateer Bluebird Turbo Coupe- a regular class winner in the BTCC in 1984/5.
'Godzilla' was only ever seen in Group N production form in Europe as I remember- we certainly never saw one in the BTCC, and the ETCC was canned before the R32 hit the circuits

Originally Posted by anthony81901

The 1985 Commodore was basically a road car with slicks. With no aerodynamic aids it was only Brock's brilliant driving that kept it anywhere near the front. By the beginning of 1986 the 500 upgraded versions as required by the Group A regs had been completed and in longer distance races the Commodore was competitive and was seen on the world stage with the ETCC campaign.

But the built for purpose M3s & Sierras in that arrived in 1987 were just in another league. I think anyone who objectively reads the story of the Brock Holden split will come to the conclusion that a parting of the ways had to happen, Brock was in cloud cuckoo land Holden had no real choice.

The 1988 effort appeared to be fairly serious, although hampered by the TWR car not able to debut until the enduros until the 500 road going examples were built. Agree that skipping the 1989 ATCC wasn't a great PR move, but in reality the way the regs were they were going to be lapped by the Sierras.

Agree running a skeleton campaign in 1992 was a blunder.

I think it was the building of cars to suit the regulations, firstly the RS500 and later the GT-R that ultimately brought Group A undone. In its formative years there was a variety of cars that could win but from 1988 picking the winner became all too predictable.

What really killed the game was that 500-off Evolution clause in the rules- the basic Sierra Cosworth was about on a par with the M3s, and in privateer hands at BTCC level in 1987, the older Rovers and VK Commodores were still winning races. Once the RS500 appeared mid-season, it was pretty much game over for anything else as an outright winner.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by KA

What really killed the game was that 500-off Evolution clause in the rules- the basic Sierra Cosworth was about on a par with the M3s, and in privateer hands at BTCC level in 1987, the older Rovers and VK Commodores were still winning races. Once the RS500 appeared mid-season, it was pretty much game over for anything else as an outright winner.

I wholeheartedly agree, the 500 sporting evolutions homolgation was the greatest flaw in Group A. To this day, i believe we could have a very successful, long lasting Group A Touring Car series without that rule.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

I wholeheartedly agree, the 500 sporting evolutions homolgation was the greatest flaw in Group A. To this day, i believe we could have a very successful, long lasting Group A Touring Car series without that rule.

It did give us a few years of very interesting racing though. Almost like a big-budget one-make series for the RS 500...

[brendonwood1]

Originally Posted by KA

In fact, the Skyline- in all it's Group A forms- was almost a purely Australian and Japanese phenomenon- apart from the Gibson cars, they were only really widely raced at home in Japan.

IIRC the only Group A Skyline ever seen in Europe was the Howard Marsden/NME R31 that Grice shared with Win Percy in a few European races in 1988. Apart from that the most successful- and almost the only- European Nissan effort was probably Graham Goode's privateer Bluebird Turbo Coupe- a regular class winner in the BTCC in 1984/5.
'Godzilla' was only ever seen in Group N production form in Europe as I remember- we certainly never saw one in the BTCC, and the ETCC was canned before the R32 hit the circuits.

The Skyline R32 GT-R did in fact race in Group A in Europe - at the Spa 24 hour. They appeared in Group N trim in 1990, finishing 12th outright and second in class: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...991%20Spa.html

More importantly, a Group A Skyline GT-R won the 1991 Spa 24 hour race: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...991%20Spa.html.
Photo of the car on this page: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...991%20Spa.html

The Grp N GT-R won its class and finished 6th outright.

In 1992, the GT-R was given a weight handicap at Spa, and failed to finish after a pit lane fire at a re-fueling stop: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...992%20Spa.html.
The Grp N GT-R won its class again in 1992. http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...992%20Spa.html

I believe that Luis-Perez Sala also won the Spanish Touring Car Championship in a Repsol sponsored GT-R, but this may have been a Group N car. I have a vague memory of seeing this in International Reports section of Autosport during that era, but I no longer have access to the magazines from that time.

[Marcos WTF]

[QUOTE=racer69;2694502]You would be of the opinion then that the likes of Moffat's BOSS Mustang, Bob Jane's Camaro, Ian Geoghegan's Mustangs, Kevin Bartlett's Camaro etc etc had no place racing here??

Yes, not in the ATCC. Neither should twin cam Celicas, twin cam Geminis and the Dato 1200 five speed that had a class win at Bathurst '73.

[Bevan-L]

[QUOTE=Marcos WTF;2696875]

Originally Posted by racer69

You would be of the opinion then that the likes of Moffat's BOSS Mustang, Bob Jane's Camaro, Ian Geoghegan's Mustangs, Kevin Bartlett's Camaro etc etc had no place racing here??

Yes, not in the ATCC. Neither should twin cam Celicas, twin cam Geminis and the Dato 1200 five speed that had a class win at Bathurst '73.

Why not?

[Marcos WTF]

[QUOTE=Bevan-L;2696888]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Why not?

The wern't sold here through the regular dealer network. How many siera have you seen sold though a ford dealer?
Or how many twin cam Geminis were sold through a Holden dealer.
I never saw any.

IMHO for a car to be eligible for the ATCC, it should have been for on sale here, and in it's road going form be able to be registered. No LHD, and a minimum quantity sold, say 1000.

[Bevan-L]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

The wern't sold here through the regular dealer network. How many siera have you seen sold though a ford dealer?
Or how many twin cam Geminis were sold through a Holden dealer.
I never saw any.

IMHO for a car to be eligible for the ATCC, it should have been for on sale here, and in it's road going form be able to be registered. No LHD, and a minimum quantity sold, say 1000.

Deal with it. It's happened all over the world in various motorsport classes NOT only the ATCC. Infact it still happens to this very day.
FWIW How do you know Ford, BMW etc didn't push some BS that they will be selling the cars here and if they could race while thats all been set up???

How bizarre people doing anything to win even if cheating. very unusual in the world of motosport....

[Sultan]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

I wholeheartedly agree, the 500 sporting evolutions homolgation was the greatest flaw in Group A. To this day, i believe we could have a very successful, long lasting Group A Touring Car series without that rule.

Completey agree with you there David...

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Yes, not in the ATCC. Neither should twin cam Celicas, twin cam Geminis and the Dato 1200 five speed that had a class win at Bathurst '73.

Ridiculous post - The ATCC is & would be the poorer for such an attitude.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Ridiculous post - The ATCC is & would be the poorer for such an attitude.

And the Gold Star ADC would be the biggest series in the country.

[KA]

Originally Posted by brendonwood1

The Skyline R32 GT-R did in fact race in Group A in Europe - at the Spa 24 hour. They appeared in Group N trim in 1990, finishing 12th outright and second in class: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...991%20Spa.html

More importantly, a Group A Skyline GT-R won the 1991 Spa 24 hour race: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...991%20Spa.html.
Photo of the car on this page: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...991%20Spa.html

The Grp N GT-R won its class and finished 6th outright.

In 1992, the GT-R was given a weight handicap at Spa, and failed to finish after a pit lane fire at a re-fueling stop: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...992%20Spa.html.
The Grp N GT-R won its class again in 1992. http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...992%20Spa.html

I believe that Luis-Perez Sala also won the Spanish Touring Car Championship in a Repsol sponsored GT-R, but this may have been a Group N car. I have a vague memory of seeing this in International Reports section of Autosport during that era, but I no longer have access to the magazines from that time.

Thanks- I remember the Group N cars at Spa, but forgot that the Group A version had raced there.
I think but won't swear that the Spanish Championship win by Sala might have been in a Gp N car

[David Towe]

[QUOTE=Marcos WTF;2697581]

Originally Posted by Bevan-L

The wern't sold here through the regular dealer network. How many siera have you seen sold though a ford dealer?
Or how many twin cam Geminis were sold through a Holden dealer.
I never saw any.

IMHO for a car to be eligible for the ATCC, it should have been for on sale here, and in it's road going form be able to be registered. No LHD, and a minimum quantity sold, say 1000.

Ooops! Better add the BMW M3s to that list aswell!!!

Marcos, it was a "World Touring Car Championship" and the rules of Group A were a worldwide formula, were the Sierras, Celicas and Geminis on sale in that format anywhere in the world?

What are your thoughts re the current V8 taxi rules then? Can't buy one of them at a dealership can we!

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

PB was entered with David Parsons in 05. Peter McLeod was entered with Jon Crooke in car 10. 05 failed before the first pit stop and PB contemplated jumping in to car 10 at that point, but then decided to leave Peter McLoed in the car as a reward for bringing significant funding to the cash strapped team.

Besides, due to the funding shortage in the wake of the divorce with Holden, car 10 was severely underprepared and not expected to last that long anyway. No one was more surprised than PB when the car made it to the seocnd pit stop, so he decided to jump in a have a red hot go. David Parsons took over when Brock pitted, but Jon Crooke missed out on a drive that day.

David,

A little known fact (as I have it) was that the #10 also had Peter McLeod's engine in it (part of the deal). That engine was a Les Small unit, not HDT.

[xr8]

So does that mean that the H.R.T. will appolagize for running the stroker cranks in the Toranas? (yeah I know the engineers that did it)
And the fords that ran the brake boosters as "silly gas" tanks!
Cheating was, well you did it or you didn't win.

[KA]

[QUOTE=David Towe;2700741]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Ooops! Better add the BMW M3s to that list aswell!!!

Marcos, it was a "World Touring Car Championship" and the rules of Group A were a worldwide formula, were the Sierras, Celicas and Geminis on sale in that format anywhere in the world?

What are your thoughts re the current V8 taxi rules then? Can't buy one of them at a dealership can we!

That's true David.

Looking at this from a European perspective, when Brock, Grice and Moffatt brought their various Commodores to Europe in '86/7, they were a very welcome addition to the scene. Maybe we should have sent them home because you couldn't buy a VK/VL from your local Vauxhall/Opel dealer...?

[Wrighty05]

Originally Posted by xr8

So does that mean that the H.R.T. will appolagize for running the stroker cranks in the Toranas? (yeah I know the engineers that did it)
And the fords that ran the brake boosters as "silly gas" tanks!
Cheating was, well you did it or you didn't win.

When did HRT run Torana's?

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

A little known fact (as I have it) was that the #10 also had Peter McLeod's engine in it (part of the deal). That engine was a Les Small unit, not HDT.

I think McLeod's engine was used in practice with the practice engine from 05 going into 10 for the race.