How about the consistant grip of those ferraris!

[RWC]

We don't get much good TV coverage here in OZ.I noticed on one of the slowmo-s through the chicane the unbelievable grip of the ferraris!!
You could see the way they would bump the kerb and no matter which wheel was sliding you could see it sliding a little more or a little less.NO sudden loss of grip on one corner.NO Uncontrolable twitchiness,no sudden loss of all grip(they were jumping about like mad but you could SEE the moment that each tyre touched down again-the car would just PULL ITSELF BACK INTO LINE).No wonder they're embarrassing everyone.No wonder rhubino is having little challenge keeping near micheal(can we start next years champs allready says micheal).Jeez,I could drive that car fast-no kidding.Amazing
And the scary thing is that both Mac and Willy won't seriously challenge next year UNLESS michelin do better!!Ouch

[Mr V]

It's not surprizing really when you consider that Ferrari and Bridgestone are a "partnership" as opposed to Bridgestone being Ferrari's tyre supplier as they are with the others!

[Jukebox]

It dosen't necessarily be because of the tyres with what RWC was reffering to.

The settings of the ride height, packers and dampers plays the most important part on circuits that has tight corners and chicanes.

Obviously Montoya's engineers wasn't aware of the fact that they are racing in Hungary

[Mr V]

Juke, it is widely accepted that tyres make the biggest difference in terms of performance in comparison to anything else, why do you think that Ferrari and Bridgestone have formed this alliance?

[Legend]

Why? :confused:

[Airhead]

Well I would love to think that it was some sort of conspiracy where the team where dressed in Rubber - but that isn't so is it??

F1 is boring due to the dominece of one team. Because they unlike the opposition have their collective shyyte together. That is the problem. How to motivate and include an entire team. Not just some guy behind the wheel.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Legend
Why? :confused:

What do you mean why? Ferrari and Bridgestones relationship, or should i say, partnership allows two things, the tyre to be developed around the car and also the car to be developed to suit the tyre, that is the reason why the tyre is so much more important, i personally don't blame Ferrari and Bridgestone in having this partnership, but it does contribute towards making things boring, just wish the other teams had the oppertunity to have a partnership with Tyre companies to even up the advantage.

[kmchow]

Could traction control have something to do with it?

[Mr V]

Originally posted by kmchow
Could traction control have something to do with it?

Don't think so, as all the teams now have it.

[Legend]

Originally posted by mr v


What do you mean why? Ferrari and Bridgestones relationship, or should i say, partnership allows two things, the tyre to be developed around the car and also the car to be developed to suit the tyre, that is the reason why the tyre is so much more important, i personally don't blame Ferrari and Bridgestone in having this partnership, but it does contribute towards making things boring, just wish the other teams had the oppertunity to have a partnership with Tyre companies to even up the advantage.

Why don't Willies and Macies have a relationship or partnership with Michelin if it is so good? :confused:
Have Ferrari outsmarted everyone else?
I guess the other companies have the oppertunity but.......

[Jordi]

Michelin has to divide attentions between McLaren and Williams, and also trying to help the french team Renault, while Bridgestone's only realistic possibility of winning is Ferrari.

The Ferrari F2002-Bridgestone Potenza marriage is a solid one I've got to say.

It similar to 1998. McLaren was using Bridgestones, and as soon as Goodyear saw that Ferrari was their only winning option as Williams was not competitive, they listened to them.

[bosch!]

Its also said that the Bridgstone tyre is sensitive to weight distribution, being optimised for the ferrari. Maybe its time to think about control tyres.

[senna12]

It was pointed out again, during Speed's broadcast of Hungary, that Ferrari have 10 engineers based at the Bridgestone facility, and they are there to insure that Bridgestones' focus remains with the red team. I suspect that there is a similar number of Bridgestone people based in Maranello. If I were Dave Richards or Eddie Jordan, I would not be too happy about the current state of affairs, and would be trying to entice Goodyear to hook up.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by senna12
If I were Dave Richards or Eddie Jordan, I would not be too happy about the current state of affairs, and would be trying to entice Goodyear to hook up.

I alway thought that McLaren would be the team to try and entice Goodyear back into F1, the problem is, Michelin and Bridgestone stipulate a 3 year contract for the teams running their tyres. It's quite possible that McLaren could at the end of next year (2003) give Goodyear a chassis etc to test with for a year, as Williams did with Michelin, but that still means another 2 years of Ferrari/Bridgestone domination. (unless Williams were to do it this year, then we could see Goodyear back in F1 in 2004, but i think that Williams and Michelin will stay together)

[freud]

I believe that Ferrari has developed an exceptionally well traction control system (they have been working on it for years now) which has made them so dominant particularly in race condtions. On average the Ferrari cars are approximately a second and a half quicker than their closest rivals, Williams [1.5 seconds is light years in F1 terminology]. The appropriate management of traction control helps the tyres in maitaining grip & prevent from blistering.

[Jordi]

Freud, they were working on it waaaayy before it was legal...

[Legend]

Jordi, were Ferrari team working on it or they were using it waaaaay before it was legal? :confused:

If the last part was what you claimed, please add some solid proof.

Cheers mate

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Legend

If the last part was what you claimed, please add some solid proof.

Sounds familiar ay Legend!

As for working on it waaaaaaaay before it was legal, back in 2000 at San Marino, TGF said his car was doing a certain thing at Aqua Minerali, a well known retired driver (who itv-f1 wouldn't name) said it was doing the opposite, this was all to do with the traction of the Ferrari, everyone has to make up their own minds!

[Jukebox]

Originally posted by mr v
Juke, it is widely accepted that tyres make the biggest difference in terms of performance in comparison to anything else, why do you think that Ferrari and Bridgestone have formed this alliance?

One thing for sure mr v, there are so many parts that contributes to a lot of different factors. Yes tyres are mainly one the main part when we talk about grip but there are other parts of the car too that can contribute to better grip or loss of grip.

I dare say if Williams and Bridgestone were to form an alliance, they wouldn't achieve the same level of success like ferrari did.

Try going here and i kinda agree with what Lee Janotta had to say about Williams car setup

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Jukebox



I dare say if Williams and Bridgestone were to form an alliance, they wouldn't achieve the same level of success like ferrari did.

I'm sure your right there Juke, but put this years F2002 on Michelins, whilst still being the best chassis etc out there, i'll bet it's not quite so dominant!

[Jukebox]

mr v

But then, if they were to have at least a year to understand eachother's specs. I don't see any reason why F2002 should not be as dominant. But Michelin is such a lousy manufacturer.....to think they don't even have a good 'wet' type of tyres. You were there at Silverstone and witnessed what happened there

[Guisbro Rod H]

Solid proof of traction control was requested.
Answer none, because I can only listen and read what journalists choose to write. (And I can't spell)

I think the story started when a driver heard an engine missfirng as it came out of a slow corner where it was difficult to stop the wheels from spinning. The missfiring car never span its rear tyres but always missfired at that point. How does a driver operate a car throttle to make a modern computer controlled car misfire? Impossible unless faulty ignition or fueling.

I seem to recall it was Heinz Harold Frentzen who heard the missfire and there was a comment from Ferrari (Schue?) that Heinz was bringing the sport into disrepute by unsubstantiated accusations of traction control.

Traction control is when the rear wheel speed is monitered compared to the undriven wheels, then the engine is controlled to stop unnecessary wheelspin.

The concensus of opinion was that Ferrari where using the engine management computer to control the rate of increase of the revs of the engine. If the engine tries to accelerate at too fast a rate make it misfire to save fuel. When does an engine accelerate suddenly? Either when the rear tyres spin or the gearbox misses a gear. Floor the throttle on ice and imagine an engine that stops the revs going sky high that doesn't measure wheel speed but knows which gear its in, what the car speed is, the computer calculates the gear ratio, etc.

So it wasn't traction control (also like Mclaren's extra brake pedal, people using the pit lane rev limiter button to control max revs, etc) it was protecting the engine and transmission but had a useful sideffect that it was quicker out of slow corners. Thats why the FIA allowed Traction Control back again because the engineers would find a way round it legally. Lets not remember the team (Benneton?) that had software but claimed it wasn't used but was well hidden and not on the software menu, the FIA were inspecting computer menus at the time!

Does that help?

[Red]

Originally posted by Guisbro Rod H
Does that help?

Not exactly......

Well, actually Frenzen (on his web site) was trying to make an excuse as to how come that he (the WDC contender in 1999 mind you) was held at bay by a rookie's Sauber... and said something like he wondered how Sauber (not Ferrari) had such a good traction and he hadn’t. Anyway, that story was quickly "adapted" (read misquoted; not much, since his comments were a bit malicious anyway) by the media, ie F1-racing magazine, with the headline "Frenzen accuses Ferrari etc". That provoked Frenzen a hysteria crisis... He actually accused the journalists, en masse, in the one of following GP's Press Conference, and publicly apologized to Michael Schumacher (who indeed had admonished him).

Several points: making an engine to misfire does not save fuel. Besides, the unburned fuel might explode when reaches the heated exhaust pipes and cause damage to them. But I agree with your analysis from the last paragraph: whatever regulations FIA would introduce, a clever engineer could find a system that circumvents them doing the same trick; or near. After that long discussions will follow, FIA and the other teams arguing that it’s illegal while they would claim that it respects every letter in the Regulations… Also I agree with the first paragraph: “The answer is none”

Oh yes, "to control the rate of engine's acceleration". Actually it was a consensus regarding that; but that has little relevance, since EVERY OTHER team was doing exactly the same and it was permitted by the regs...

[Guisbro Rod H]

Yes you are correct, it was the Sauber - Ferrari.
You save fuel if you cut the electronic fuel injection.
You do not save fuel if you cut the ignition.
If it was heard from another car it was probably an ignition cut, but cutting the fuel injection sequence is better.

[Red]

Yes Guisbro, so we, basically, agree.

OK, let’s try to clarify the Frenzen saga.

He was quoted by the media with something like that:

"I don't know if traction control comes as a factory option with Ferrari engines, but every time I got close in a slower corner he (Heidfeld) would pull away under acceleration which was strange as I could hear the engine misfiring."

Of course, we all remember titles like "Frenzen accuses Ferrari", "Frenzen proves whatever" etc..
----------

Later, in the media (and please do note how many times the words like journalists, media, press offare used ) he was quoted with:

“In the past 18 races (but I personally doubt how much time did he have to opportunity to be behind a Ferrari powered car let alone "trail" but that's another story), I had plenty of opportunity to trail behind Ferrari cars or machinery powered by Ferrari engines and one thing was particularly remarkable: out of tight corners, these cars had a pretty stunning acceleration, combined with a misfiring engine.

For me, it is beyond doubt that somehow Ferrari managed to develop an engine software which reduces the power by a certain margin to the extent that the driven wheels don't spin.

It cannot be ignored that something like that exists, there is simply no room for discussion about that, on the other hand, however, you can discuss if the device that exists is legal or illegal. I believe that Formula One - thanks to its brilliant engineers -- progressed into an area which is hard to be defined even by the FIA.
In the laps when I was following Nick (Heidfeld), he drove without any errors. This was a performance that deserved to be awarded with his first ever Formula One points."
----------

Later, he officially said this:

"The comments about traction control made on my webpage seem to have been misconstrued by the media and now it seems some of the drivers have misunderstood me as well. I have never indicated that I was talking about illegal traction control but was merely discussing a form of legal traction control to explain to my fans some things about Formula One. I was commenting on my views as a driver following Ferrari powered cars around the track. Recent comments made by Max Mosley support my views and I hope that anything that may have been written about this should be ignored."

Those recent comments made by Max were:

"We disagree [with the allegations], and we are better placed than Heinz-Harald Frentzen to know what the various teams are doing. It is, however, a fact that some teams are able to tune their engines so that wheelspin becomes unlikely and more manageable. This is not the same thing as traction control."

Interesting point isn't it?
----------

The press conference that I was talking about was from Malaysian GP, friday:


Q. You've made some quite controversial comments about following Nick Heidfeld's Sauber in Australia. Can you tell us some more about that? What were your reasons? Can you clarify the situation?
HF. Yes, it depends what you want to know: from the beginning, or just this case. I had somebody to write about Formula One on my home page, and I explained a lot of things, if somebody's calling my home page. The item of traction control in Formula One is not a new item, it has not been issued after Melbourne, it's always a discussion. But I have to say a general discussion. After Melbourne there was some misunderstanding about my quotes, that I was saying that the Ferrari engines, no matter which driver, are running illegal traction control. This issue, you can never find it in my words, in my home page or any interview, and I only said, when I was asked about that, I said, well, they have something that helps them to come better out of the corner, but it is a legal traction control. And when people asked me, do you think it's illegal, I said I can't answer that question because the FIA has all the data about traction control, and whether it's illegal or not. But also we have the answer of Max Mosley, saying that there are teams running a system in Formula One which reduces wheelspin. It's a system which is not working together with wheelspin sensors. It's a normal, legal system: they predict that wheelspin can happen, and you can program this in the software, but it's not illegal, and I was talking about this system, just to clarify it, that this is the system I was talking about, not illegal traction control. But there are some people who just simply ignored this item, and said,Heinz-Harald said Ferrari was using illegal traction control. So I clarified it again on my home page and obviously there's a lot of people a bit upset about it. But just listen to my quotes, make a one-to-one interview, or write properly about my home page. That's all I can say.

Q. Heinz, yesterday Michael accused you of bringing the sport into disrepute with your comments about teams possibly running suspect engine maps. How do you feel about that?
HF. Well, I have to say I fully understand if Michael is saying that. How many of you people did write that I was claiming Ferrari was using illegal traction control? Nobody? I am very surprised he's said that, then. It was actually written in some newspapers that I said it's illegal traction control they are running. If he gets to know this then of course he is ****ed off, I can imagine. I don't know how he would realise it now that all the explanation has been made. I also haven't said that the FIA is not able to analyse if somebody is cheating. I haven't said that.

Q. He was aware that you had clarified it, and he was saying that if you thought there was something dubious on the car that you should then go to the FIA rather than make public statements about it.
HF. Maybe he didn't understand that too. This talk about traction control is a never-ending story anyway. For what reason we are using traction control eight years after it is banned, again traction control in the future... Every interview I did before the season, at the launch or even after last year's season, there was always a question, what do you think about traction control coming into Formula One? And I always made the same comments. I said I personally feel sad about it. I like to race with, and I am sure most of the drivers are in the same spirit... I think the best way in the future is having a normal system, nothing special, allowing the driver to control the wheelspin by himself. I think this is the spirit of the sport and should be the spirit of the sport in future. But I understand as well that in these days there are so many possibilities, electronics is so advanced that you can work and have a system which works similar to traction control like I explained before, which is 100% legal. I think this is the point really, to say, where is the point to be legal or not to be illegal, and this is the job of the FIA, and I don't say that they do a wrong job, otherwise they wouldn't release it. But I personally believe that one day we'll get rid of all this **** and drive normally again. That would be my wish in Formula One, and I hope one day that the team owners and the FIA agree that.

Q. So would you then say that all the results up until Barcelona would be suspect?
HF. No, I haven't said that. I think you are the kind of person that likes to write that I'm saying that everything is illegal.

Q. I'm just curious. If you're saying that there's a possibility that teams are running dubious engine maps, and they have an electronic solution to wheel control...
HF. I never said they're running dubious engine maps.

Q. But that's where the thought leads.
HF. I haven't said that. I said on my home page, and that's where all the news is coming from, how this system, a legal traction control system, works. And it's a legal traction control system. For everybody who doesn't understand this, it's a system that prevents the wheels spinning, not taking the wheelspin sensor. That's a legal system used for several years in some teams. This is the system I was talking about, I never mentioned illegal traction control, so I want you to make it understandable.

PS: Please note that it was Frenzen's own words who triggered the "Autocensor" software....not me!