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View Poll Results: Should FF1600 lap records set on Dunlop tyres be discounted?
Yes 10 30.30%
No 23 69.70%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 9 Apr 2012, 14:04 (Ref:3055820)   #76
Flat Out Farr
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This is very interesting but it is not representative as it needs to be split down to lap records with Kent engines and lap records with Zetec engines as F.Ford has changed so much over the years!

The table will also show how much faster the Zetec cars are (?) compared to the older Kent engined cars
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Old 9 Apr 2012, 14:13 (Ref:3055824)   #77
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Originally Posted by Flat Out Farr View Post
This is very interesting but it is not representative as it needs to be split down to lap records with Kent engines and lap records with Zetec engines as F.Ford has changed so much over the years!

The table will also show how much faster the Zetec cars are (?) compared to the older Kent engined cars
I don't quite understand. All the cars on this list run (or ran) to FF1600 'Kent' regulations at the time they set the lap record. It is meant as a reference for all the Formula Ford 1600 competitors out there. The Zetec was always a faster car (and almost all the lap records will have been set during British Championship races as I cannot imagine any of the Club Zetec runners managed to get near to those sort of times).

If anyone wants to compile lap records for the Zetec car, be my guest.

EDIT: In what way is this 'not representative'!?

Last edited by barnettracing; 9 Apr 2012 at 14:15. Reason: Extra question.
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Old 9 Apr 2012, 14:39 (Ref:3055832)   #78
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Originally Posted by barnettracing View Post
The Zetec was always a faster car (and almost all the lap records will have been set during British Championship races as I cannot imagine any of the Club Zetec runners managed to get near to those sort of times).

If anyone wants to compile lap records for the Zetec car, be my guest.

EDIT: In what way is this 'not representative'!?
As I understand it, the Zetec's struggled to beat the existing lap records until slicks/wets were used. Something about the heavier Zetec engine being more difficult to balance.
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Old 9 Apr 2012, 15:47 (Ref:3055858)   #79
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I'm not sure that there is any need to differentiate between the records set in cars that were construscted to Kent regulations and those that are converted Zetec (and potentially Duratech) spec. My reasoning of this is that in the era of the Kent engine being used at a national level, there were a significant number of enhancements to chassis design (I'm sure most people would agree that in most circumstances, say, a Swift SC92 is quicker than a Jamun T2, for instance). As such the introduction of new cars can be seen as an extension of this progression. The key thing to my mind, is that the records are set in FF1600 races, by cars complying to the prescribed regulations, regardless of age.
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Old 9 Apr 2012, 16:41 (Ref:3055879)   #80
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As I understand it, the Zetec's struggled to beat the existing lap records until slicks/wets were used. Something about the heavier Zetec engine being more difficult to balance.
Yes SAMD, I understand the problems surrounding the Zetec cars (their weight was too high up, hence the longer wheelbases) but I don't see what relevance it has to a thread about Kent-engined lap records?
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Old 9 Apr 2012, 16:43 (Ref:3055880)   #81
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There will be no splitting of the lap records to reflect cars originally built to Zetec/Duratec regulations.

It is natural progression (even in a series as tightly controlled as FF1600) that the newer cars will be quicker. Also, as has been pointed out, although the ex-Zetec cars are quick, their designs were not optimised for the ACB10 tyres nor the weight distribution of the Kent engine.

For the avoidance of any doubt;

ANY CAR BUILT OR CONVERTED TO FF1600 'KENT' REGULATIONS IS ELIGIBLE TO BREAK A LAP RECORD ON THIS LIST. IT MUST HOWEVER BE BROKEN IN A RACE SOLELY FOR FF1600 CARS AND NOT AS PART OF AN INVITATIONAL CLASS IN ANOTHER SERIES/RACE/CHAMPIONSHIP.
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Old 9 Apr 2012, 18:13 (Ref:3055924)   #82
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Originally Posted by barnettracing View Post
There will be no splitting of the lap records to reflect cars originally built to Zetec/Duratec regulations.

It is natural progression (even in a series as tightly controlled as FF1600) that the newer cars will be quicker. Also, as has been pointed out, although the ex-Zetec cars are quick, their designs were not optimised for the ACB10 tyres nor the weight distribution of the Kent engine.

For the avoidance of any doubt;

ANY CAR BUILT OR CONVERTED TO FF1600 'KENT' REGULATIONS IS ELIGIBLE TO BREAK A LAP RECORD ON THIS LIST. IT MUST HOWEVER BE BROKEN IN A RACE SOLELY FOR FF1600 CARS AND NOT AS PART OF AN INVITATIONAL CLASS IN ANOTHER SERIES/RACE/CHAMPIONSHIP.
I think it goes without saying (says he) that NO record will be broken through an invitational class in Ireland and I am sure on the mainland it would be the same. No self respecting FF1600 hot shoe is going to run at record breaking speeds in a non ff1600 race. Why have no World Champion race drivers such as TGF (Who I have the utmost respect for) returned to the likes of the FF Festival to try and win it? 'Cos there is nothing in it for them. They would be expected to win, so nothing gained if they do. But it is equally possible they would not win and where would that leave them?
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Old 22 Apr 2012, 17:52 (Ref:3063771)   #83
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Josh,
Just read this tread. This took some amount of time to put together, top job! I cant see that brands Indy lap record been broken for a long time!
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Old 22 Apr 2012, 18:18 (Ref:3063793)   #84
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Josh,
Just read this tread. This took some amount of time to put together, top job! I cant see that brands Indy lap record been broken for a long time!
Cheers, I have to admit that I only started the ball rolling, everyone on here has been mighty helpful.

Yeah, Ivor did a top job at that year's Festival. I'll give it my best go on the 2nd of June when I try and defend my CoB title.
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Old 23 Apr 2012, 15:08 (Ref:3064331)   #85
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Great work there Josh.

I think there is a quicker Oulton Fosters time from pre-2007. Not raced fosters since they have tewaked the chicane down there, so not sure how different the fosters corner and knickerbrook kink is now, but back in 2003/2004 when we raced on the layout a lot, we were qualyfing in the 1.03's and sure some people had race laps in the three's. I seem to remeber the lap record as a low 1.03 though, sure Diz can recall it.
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Old 26 Apr 2012, 16:18 (Ref:3065864)   #86
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CircuitDriverCarLap TimeDateTyres
Anglesey CoastalScott MalvernRay GRS08
1m11.179s
04/06/2009Avon
Anglesey InternationalScott MalvernRay GRS08
1m33.028s
05/06/2009Avon
Brands Hatch IndyIvor McCulloughVan Diemen RF00
49.964s
17/10/2010Avon
Brands Hatch GPPeter DempseySwift SC92
1m36.542s
24/09/2005Avon
Cadwell ParkPeter DempseySwift SC92
1m32.350s
07/08/2005Avon
Castle CombeJosh FisherMygale SJ03
1m10.511s
24/03/2008Avon
CroftNeil BoardmanVan Diemen RF91
1m29.590s
24/09/2005Avon
Croix-en-Ternois-    
Donington Park NationalJohn MurphyVan Diemen RF90
1m15.348s
15/05/2011Avon
Donington Park International-    
KirkistownJonny McMullanMondial M89
1m01.023s
31/03/2012Avon
KnockhillGraham CarrollVan Diemen RF92
54.617s
14/09/2008Avon
Lydden-    
Mallory ParkJamie SpenceSwift SC92
47.780s
23/08/1992Dunlop
Mondello Park InternationalScott MalvernRay GRS08
1m47.495s
12/09/2009Avon
Oulton Park FostersMark ChadwickVan Diemen RF04
1m04.570s
31/03/2007Avon
Oulton Park IslandJordan SkinnerRay GRK10
1m30.594s
26/04/2010Avon
Oulton Park InternationalGavin WillsVan Diemen RF00
1m47.327s
11/10/2008Avon
Pembrey-    
Rockingham ISSCCMark WilliamsReynard 92FF
1m29.952s
23/06/2007Avon
Silverstone NationalNeville SmythRay GR07
1m02.305s
04/11/2007Avon
Silverstone Arena GPDavid WildLola T200
2m21.901s
15/05/2011Avon
Snetterton 200Mike GardnerVan Diemen RF80
1m21.121s
07/04/2012Avon
Snetterton 300Benn SimmsAlexis Mk14
2m07.274s
12/06/2011Avon
ThruxtonGavin WillsVan Diemen RF00
1m21.786s
28/06/2003Avon

Many thanks to Trevor Swettenham, the press officer for the BARC for digging out the Formula Ford lap records around Thruxton. I now have the definitive fastest lap around the Hampshire speedbowl in a Kent-engined car. As suspected it is from the 2003 King of Kents race. Gavin's lap is a quite incredible 103.70mph average speed!

Goughy, I have just emailed Oulton Park to see if they can help regarding the Fosters lap record. If anyone comes across a faster lap in any old time sheets please PM me. I'll also see if Diz can find anything.

I'll post an updated table soon with added average lap speeds to give everyone an idea of the different circuits.
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Old 27 Apr 2012, 10:00 (Ref:3066070)   #87
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Goughy, I have just emailed Oulton Park to see if they can help regarding the Fosters lap record. If anyone comes across a faster lap in any old time sheets please PM me. I'll also see if Diz can find anything.
The OP lap records in the raceday programmes were put in by Tom Dooley. I seem to recall that he used to have Fosters at a 1m03.2s by [possibly Mike Bennett].
What we need is somebody with a collection of programmes and race results to pop up on here. I stopped hoarding these and Autosprouts and Muttering Nudes many moons ago.
But - in the back of my mind - I'm sure Fosters used to regularly get navigated in the mid to low 1m02s'
It seems ages ago - and it was about 35 years ago - that the lap record was held by about seven different drivers, all unable to better 1m07.0s
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Old 27 Apr 2012, 12:13 (Ref:3066128)   #88
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Yes Diz, I recall you telling me it was Mike Bennett who held the record, although legend says that this 1.03.2 was a huge anomaly that may have been a mistake as the Bennett brothers ran identical cars who were lapping together in this race and the timekeepers may have tripped up on this particular lap.

I know me and John Lobell shared the quickest qually lap of 1.03.667, that’s why I am pretty sure there is a quicker current lap record of a high 3, low 4-I seem to think someone like Steve Roberts set it.
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Old 27 Apr 2012, 12:26 (Ref:3066132)   #89
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The fastest lap I have found was a 1m03.138s set by David Brown (28/07/2007). However, it is a qualifying lap so obviously doesn't count. Considering that a lot of qualifying laps from 2007/2008 were in the low 1m04s the lap record must be faster than the lap I currently have listed. http://www.tsl-timing.com/brscc/2007/73032.pdf

If anyone can verify the Mike Bennett lap (car, date) then the list will be updated.

Whilst we're all here. Does anyone know the Pembrey lap record? There used to be a Star of Wales Championship held there. Robin Parsons won it back in the late 1990s.

Also, with the changes to Donington, has the GP circuit been modified? If so then the LR is still to be set, if not does anyone know what the lap record is? It may have been set during the 2005 MSV Midlands/South Championship. I remember Mr. Dawkins was pretty hot up there in his RF90.

EDIT TO ADD: Off topic but, many thanks Diz for last weekend at Oulton. All the NW guys made me feel very welcome and the circuit is superb. I'll definitely be back.

Last edited by barnettracing; 27 Apr 2012 at 12:28. Reason: Thanks to Diz
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Old 27 Apr 2012, 13:56 (Ref:3066160)   #90
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It seems ages ago - and it was about 35 years ago - that the lap record was held by about seven different drivers, all unable to better 1m07.0s
From memory the seven included Derek Daly, Derek Warwick, David Kennedy, Rick Morris, Kenny Gray, Matt Argenti and Rod Bremner. I think maybe two more later equalled the time (possibly John Bright and Trevor van Rooyen).

A south American by the name of Bolivar de Sordi broke the record with a 1m6.9s in 1979. Ayrton Senna couldn't beat this time in '81.
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Old 7 Aug 2012, 09:34 (Ref:3117010)   #91
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Also, with the changes to Donington, has the GP circuit been modified? If so then the LR is still to be set, if not does anyone know what the lap record is? It may have been set during the 2005 MSV Midlands/South Championship. I remember Mr. Dawkins was pretty hot up there in his RF90.
Nice of you to say, but we were actually always on the (now defunct) short circuit. We were also some way off the lap record. We (Wills and myself) hovered around mid 15s (Wills slightly faster typically), the lap record was I believe a 1:14.7 Set by a Mr M. Vergers in 1990. Its a funny old track however, times have always fluctuated. I understand it is around 1 second quicker in its current guise.

As for the GP circuit, it was never used during my time (2002 onwards), I guess it must have cropped up at some stage in the 90s. It was definitely used for the European Grand Prix support race in 1993, albeit for Zetec. Allegedly the sound of the FF1600 race was ruining to F1 driver's briefing...so Bernie had it red-flagged.
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Old 7 Aug 2012, 09:54 (Ref:3117022)   #92
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he Combe record was broken by around one second in 2008 despite no major changes and unremarkable weather.
I understand the change there was something related to the bollards, I believe new kerbs cam in which pushed them back and made the chicanes quicker. It didn;t just tumble away, people nibbled at it, but only once something (I beieve that) had changed. Prior to that no one could get near Rivett's 2002 record (which I think was a 1:11.7). A couple of high 11s happened (I think Ed Moore and Tim Reynolds) and I remember a very fast Peter Dempsey pulling out a 12 dead 24 hours into his Combe career at the carnival in 2005.

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As I said, I did a 48.7s having had my longest ever winter break (Nov-Mar) and the car was doing it's first run after a major chassis revision, on throwaway tyres (they always suit Mallory?). The Mallory lap record is one I really want to get, precisely because it is still held by Spence. It'll be 20 years this year, it'd be pretty special to snatch it.
Nick Hewitt came very close a few times in testing with new tyres etc (a good driver in a very, very well sorted car). In a way I can picture it never being broken. We saw lots of low 48s, and mid 48s were comon, but its a circuit which is quite limited in terms of where speed can be found. One area that will always be a problem now is engines. Spence will have had fresh, expensive and well developed units at his disposal, which modern day club drivers just don't have. Throw in fresh shocks, a brand new chassis, a trick diff, blueprinted gearbox, riffle-drillled driveshafts and god knows what else, coupled with an excellent driver and its a hard thing to beat considering the package. Its the last great lap record (now Donington has changed), it would be great to see it toppled.


This thread is really interesting, well done to Josh and everyone who has contributed.
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Old 7 Aug 2012, 11:10 (Ref:3117053)   #93
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Josh you are probably aware, but the table has not been updated yet. . .

Joey Foster beat Gavin Wills Thruxton lap record at the Ian Taylor Memorial

Joey Foster Ray GRK10 1.21.258 17.06.12

He also beat Peter Dempseys Brands Hatch GP lap record at the Champion of Brands round supporting the F3/GT

Joey Foster Ray GRK10 1.36.260 24.06.12
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Old 21 Aug 2012, 16:11 (Ref:3122606)   #94
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CircuitDriverCarLap TimeSpeedDateTyresCircuit Distance
Anglesey CoastalScott MalvernRay GRS081m11.179s78.39mph04/06/2009Avon1.550 miles
Anglesey InternationalScott MalvernRay GRS081m33.028s81.27mph05/06/2009Avon2.100 miles
Brands Hatch IndyIvor McCulloughVan Diemen RF0049.964s87.04mph17/10/2010Avon1.208 miles
Brands Hatch GPJoey FosterRay GRK101m36.260s90.73mph24/06/2012Avon2.433 miles
Cadwell ParkPeter DempseySwift SC921m32.350s85.25mph07/08/2005Avon2.187 miles
Castle CombeJosh FisherMygale SJ031m10.511s94.45mph24/03/2008Avon1.850 miles
CroftNeil BoardmanVan Diemen RF911m29.590s85.39mph24/09/2005Avon2.125 miles
Donington Park NationalJohn MurphyVan Diemen RF901m15.348s94.55mph15/05/2011Avon1.979 miles
Donington Park InternationalTO BE SET     2.487 miles
KirkistownJonny McMullanMondial M891m01.023s90.26mph31/03/2012Avon1.530 miles
KnockhillGraham CarrollVan Diemen RF9254.617s85.69mph14/09/2008Avon1.300 miles
Mallory ParkJamie SpenceSwift SC9247.780s101.72mph23/08/1992Dunlop1.350 miles
Mondello Park InternationalScott MalvernRay GRS081m47.495s75.96mph12/09/2009Avon2.268 miles
Oulton Park FostersMark ChadwickVan Diemen RF041m04.570s92.55mph31/03/2007Avon1.660 miles
Oulton Park IslandJordan SkinnerRay GRK101m30.594s88.46mph26/04/2010Avon2.226 miles
Oulton Park InternationalGavin WillsVan Diemen RF001m47.327s90.30mph11/10/2008Avon2.692 miles
Rockingham ISSCCDavid GradyVan Diemen RF021m28.778s79.04mph23/06/2007Avon1.949 miles
Silverstone NationalNeville SmythRay GR071m02.305s94.70mph04/11/2007Avon1.639 miles
Silverstone Arena GPDavid WildLola T2002m21.901s92.85mph15/05/2011Avon3.660 miles
Snetterton 200Mike GardnerVan Diemen RF801m21.121s88.05mph07/04/2012Avon1.984 miles
Snetterton 300Benn SimmsAlexis Mk142m07.274s83.98mph12/06/2011Avon2.969 miles
ThruxtonJoey FosterRay GRK101m21.258s104.37mph17/06/2012Avon2.356 miles

Sorry for the rather large delay in updating this. Considering I was racing in both the Thruxton and Brands Hatch meetings where Joey set the new records, I should've been a little bit faster in providing the new times. Well done to Joey on both records, both had been standing for quite some time.

Here they are, and I've added circuit distance and average lap speed to give a comparison of the UK's different circuits; Mondello is the slowest, Thruxton is the fastest.
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Old 21 Aug 2012, 16:57 (Ref:3122625)   #95
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Lydden Hill?
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Old 21 Aug 2012, 17:29 (Ref:3122637)   #96
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If you can find it Clive (or anyone else) then I'll add it. I don't know when the last proper FF1600 race was held there? Probably a King of Kent round, possibly early 2000's? I've had a look around but can't find anything.

The list above is of circuits that are currently active in holding standalone FF1600 races, hence no Lydden. Though saying that, Donington International is on the list (albeit without any time set).
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Old 23 Aug 2012, 14:53 (Ref:3123595)   #97
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Sorry for the rather large delay in updating this. Considering I was racing in both the Thruxton and Brands Hatch meetings where Joey set the new records, I should've been a little bit faster in providing the new times. Well done to Joey on both records, both had been standing for quite some time.

Here they are, and I've added circuit distance and average lap speed to give a comparison of the UK's different circuits; Mondello is the slowest, Thruxton is the fastest.
This is a little pedantic I know, and I am not trying to make anything of it for sure. Believe it or not I do appreciate how much work there is putting something like this together -just for fun. But just to put the record straight, Mondello is not a UK circuit. It is in Eire. A foreign country, recognised as such by all other countries including UK.
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Old 23 Aug 2012, 20:11 (Ref:3123727)   #98
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This is a little pedantic I know, and I am not trying to make anything of it for sure. Believe it or not I do appreciate how much work there is putting something like this together -just for fun. But just to put the record straight, Mondello is not a UK circuit. It is in Eire. A foreign country, recognised as such by all other countries including UK.
Sorry, my fault! It is of course in Eire (Republic of/Southern Ireland). Therefore, Anglesey Coastal is the UK's slowest circuit. Though that is in Wales ...
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Old 25 Aug 2012, 11:44 (Ref:3124508)   #99
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mondello put up the national track records the FF1600 record belongs to david wright with a 57.76 in 1990 it doesn't say which chassis though
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Old 25 Aug 2012, 14:25 (Ref:3124566)   #100
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PRS RH01 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Classic Formula Ford were at Lydden in 2005 and Paul Walton set a fastest lap of 45.299 so that could be your starting point .

Great thread
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