Audi LMP1 Discussion

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Razgriz8484

I think we may have a surprise this year at some tracks. The new HPD and Toyotas should do well I think. I don't expect wins for them (Unless something happens to the Audis) But we will see.

careful now, that's crossing that dangerous line saying that Toyota may not win this year. if anything, i expect them to have better luck than Peugeot did in their first year. I don't think a manufacturer like Toyota would get involved just to do a half-arse job. most of all they wont upgrade to Full WEC just to Give Audi the Manufacturers title. the TS010 did it in their first year, The TS020 had 3 class wins, so i don't see why a win cant be achieved by the TS030. i'd like to think we are entering a more mature and developed Toyota team than before especially after their F1 mishaps. Arrogance From Audi Fans is the reason that i want Toyota To trump Audi. Last time the Two met at the Lemans track Audi got smoked By Toyota

[gwyllion]

Sorry, but it is not arrogance that makes most of us think that Toyota's chances of winning Le Mans are rather slim. Some facts that make Audi the favorite:

• Experts in the paddock predict that "diesels will have an advantage of around 30 hp." (source).
• The R18 is in its second year, while the TS030 is completely new.
• Audi has a fantastic track record with 11 victories in 13 participations.
• Audi has a numerical superiority with 4 cars instead of 2 for Toyota.
• Only 1 of the 12 Audi drivers (Bonanomi) is a Le Mans rookie, whereas half of Toyota drivers (Buemi, Ishiura, Nakajima) are rookies. 9 Audi drivers have won Le Mans at least once, versus 1 driver (Wurz) for Toyota.

[TF110]

'On paper' the Diesels should be down on hp, not up. Toyota's hybrid system has already been tested before in a 24hour race with the Supra, and has further been improved upon and tested again over 24 hours. Audi's wins were against what competition? Not saying those wins are meaningless, but who have they beat regularly that has been a factory backed team besides Peugeot? And Peugeot handed them losses in every race for over a year besides LeMans. The R18 Ultra is supposed to be brand new. Their Hybrid is brand new. They haven't even tested it for an extended period of time yet. Last year they lost 2 of their three cars, and the driver that helped them win the race- was a rookie- from SuperGT, just like the rookies at Toyota, and one from F1.

Audi may have the advantage in experience, and in # of cars. But on terms of speed I wouldn't give them that advantage just yet. I of course hope it's as close as the Peugeot battles.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

'On paper' the Diesels should be down on hp, not up.

Did you read the source I referred to? I will give the quote: "It's a strange decision, at Le Mans this year the ACO told us the diesels had roughly 50-60 more horsepower. And now they reduce them by around 35 hp. So we go into 2012 knowing the diesels will have an advantage of around 30 hp."

Originally Posted by TF110

The R18 Ultra is supposed to be brand new. Their Hybrid is brand new. They haven't even tested it for an extended period of time yet.

Audi's hybrid system is new, but so is Toyota's. You suggest that because the TS030 hybrid solution is based on the Supra system, it is automatically reliable. The same could be said about the Audi solution, which is inspired on the 911 hybrid system.

The 2012 R18s have not done an endurance test on a track. However that does not mean that the engine, gearbox and hybrid system have not been tested extensively on a test bench.

Originally Posted by TF110

Last year they lost 2 of their three cars, and the driver that helped them win the race- was a rookie- from SuperGT, just like the rookies at Toyota, and one from F1.

Which rookie are you referring to? Lotterer who has done Le Mans in LMP1 since 2009, or Treluyer who has done Le Mans in LMP1 since 2007?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

'On paper' the Diesels should be down on hp, not up. Toyota's hybrid system has already been tested before in a 24hour race with the Supra, and has further been improved upon and tested again over 24 hours. Audi's wins were against what competition? Not saying those wins are meaningless, but who have they beat regularly that has been a factory backed team besides Peugeot? And Peugeot handed them losses in every race for over a year besides LeMans. The R18 Ultra is supposed to be brand new. Their Hybrid is brand new. They haven't even tested it for an extended period of time yet. Last year they lost 2 of their three cars, and the driver that helped them win the race- was a rookie- from SuperGT, just like the rookies at Toyota, and one from F1.

Audi may have the advantage in experience, and in # of cars. But on terms of speed I wouldn't give them that advantage just yet. I of course hope it's as close as the Peugeot battles.

Im sorry but you are wrong in several of your points:
1. None of the winning Audi's where rookies!. Treluyer has raced most famously with the 908 Pescarolo. Marcel Fässler drove the R15 and Andre Lotterer did too.

2. We all know that "on paper" doesn't mean what is true on the paddock. Personally i believe the experts on the Diesel advantage.

3. The hybrid system of the TS030 is as far as i understand not the same as the Supra one. The Supra one was tested in a 101.5 Dome, but too heavy. Yes, Toyota got more experience with the hybrid system than Audi, but the Hybrid system isn't necessarily the race decider!

4. 2008-2011 Audi was under massive pressure from Peugeot, and this could be easily be seen on how they performed, compared to the 2000-2002 races. Saying that Peugeot lost the race instead of Audi's win is in my eyes disrespectful. Audi and Peugeot choose two different ways to attack Le Mans, and Audi chose right for all but 1 race.
In 2005 and 2006 Audi was under massive pressure from Pescarolo. In 2005 the Pescarolo was a lot faster than the slow and heavy R8, but reliability failed for Pescarolo (very much like Peugeot. In 2006 the roles where switched. The unproven Diesel machinery proved a little difficult for Audi and gave Pescarolo the chance to win if Audi screwed up, Audi knew this, but kept it together (sometimes just barely).

You put way to much focus on speed. Audi has won more times with reliability than speed. The TS020 was a incredibly fast machine, but too unreliable, let's hope the TS030 won't have the same flaw.

ADD:
gwyllion was faster than me

[TF110]

Gwyllion- He was a rookie with Audi was he not? Also, I didn't say Toyota's hybrid system was 'automatically reliable'. You put those words there. I said the hybrid system has already seen a 24 hour race (which it won). And the newer system which is basically a continuation/evolution of the one in the Supra, has had 3 testing sessions now at least, and one of those was over a period of 30 hours. Even if it was interrupted by issues, it didn't stop the test. Whatever your 'source' is, who really believes the Petrol engines are/were down by at least 50hp on the diesels? The torque is what makes up the big acceleration differences. I doubt Toyota's works engine will be short 30hp on Audi's. And CTD you're wrong- the TS020 wasn't 'flawed'. It wasn't allowed to race in any other events first of all. It was the tires that caused the crash. Michelin tires are very proven these days. And the TS020 was the fastest car at LeMans in 99. No one mentioned anything about Peugeot's win being an Audi failure. Why are you adding that in there? I said they beat Audi for over a year at every event, bar LeMans 2011. And were damn close at less than 20 seconds off.

[Razgriz8484]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Sorry, but it is not arrogance that makes most of us think that Toyota's chances of winning Le Mans are rather slim. Some facts that make Audi the favorite:

• Experts in the paddock predict that "diesels will have an advantage of around 30 hp." (source).
• The R18 is in its second year, while the TS030 is completely new.
• Audi has a fantastic track record with 11 victories in 13 participations.
• Audi has a numerical superiority with 4 cars instead of 2 for Toyota.
• Only 1 of the 12 Audi drivers (Bonanomi) is a Le Mans rookie, whereas half of Toyota drivers (Buemi, Ishiura, Nakajima) are rookies. 9 Audi drivers have won Le Mans at least once, versus 1 driver (Wurz) for Toyota.

Thank you. I was going to post something along these lines but I didn't want to get a flame war going

[tyronnezx]

[QUOTE=gwyllion;3036193]Sorry, but it is not arrogance that makes most of us think that Toyota's chances of winning Le Mans are rather slim. Some facts that make Audi the favorite:

• Experts in the paddock predict that "diesels will have an advantage of around 30 hp." (source).

are you sure about that? even if that was true mate, that's only a Prediction. i trust that the ACO will adjust these come race day. with 30 extra Hp Ullrich is still crying about being down on power? whinging little girl he is

• Audi has a fantastic track record with 11 victories in 13 participations.

Yeah i dare say that In 13 of those participation's not even half of those, they were challenged. that was up until Peugeot turned up, but something tells me that Peugeot wasn't really upto the task. Toyota's a different story.

• Only 1 of the 12 Audi drivers (Bonanomi) is a Le Mans rookie, whereas half of Toyota drivers (Buemi, Ishiura, Nakajima) are rookies. 9 Audi drivers have won Le Mans at least once, versus 1 driver (Wurz) for Toyota.

Don't Forget Davidson. Not to mention that Ben and Andre were fresh SuperGt recruits, that managed to get it right on their first go. whos saying that Ishiura and Nakajima cant get it right with some reliability and some luck?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

Gwyllion- He was a rookie with Audi was he not? Also, I didn't say Toyota's hybrid system was 'automatically reliable'. You put those words there. I said the hybrid system has already seen a 24 hour race (which it won). And the newer system which is basically a continuation/evolution of the one in the Supra, has had 3 testing sessions now at least, and one of those was over a period of 30 hours. Even if it was interrupted by issues, it didn't stop the test. Whatever your 'source' is, who really believes the Petrol engines are/were down by at least 50hp on the diesels? The torque is what makes up the big acceleration differences. I doubt Toyota's works engine will be short 30hp on Audi's. And CTD you're wrong- the TS020 wasn't 'flawed'. It wasn't allowed to race in any other events first of all. It was the tires that caused the crash. Michelin tires are very proven these days. And the TS020 was the fastest car at LeMans in 99. No one mentioned anything about Peugeot's win being an Audi failure. Why are you adding that in there? I said they beat Audi for over a year at every event, bar LeMans 2011. And were damn close at less than 20 seconds off.

A Rookie at Audi is a lot better off than a rookie at Le Mans in general. If you meant an "Audi Rookie" in your original post you are very unclear about that.

We have no information about the origins of the TS030 Hybrid system. Yes they have used knowledge from the Supra system, but as far as i understand it's a brand new system.

We do not know exactly how many test Audi has done with the Hybrid system. We do not know how long time the longest Audi Hybrid test were, but we do know that they haven't completed a 24hour race rehearsal, and we know that the 30hour test was, as you say, with interruptions and therefor cannot be counted as a 24hour test in the way of Audi and Peugeots.

The TS020 had a flaws, you can't get around it in any way. If it didn't have them it would have won. Again speed is not necessarily the best way to win Le Mans, this has been proven, and i don't know why you focus so much on it.

I misread what you wrote about Peugeot vs. Audi, and redraw and apologies for what i wrote. But i stand by that Audi was under a lot of pressure in 2005 and 2006.

[CTD]

[QUOTE=tyronnezx;3036218]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Sorry, but it is not arrogance that makes most of us think that Toyota's chances of winning Le Mans are rather slim. Some facts that make Audi the favorite:

• Experts in the paddock predict that "diesels will have an advantage of around 30 hp." (source).

are you sure about that? even if that was true mate, that's only a Prediction. i trust that the ACO will adjust these come race day. with 30 extra Hp Ullrich is still crying about being down on power? whinging little girl he is

• Audi has a fantastic track record with 11 victories in 13 participations.

Yeah i dare say that In 13 of those participation's not even half of those, they were challenged. that was up until Peugeot turned up, but something tells me that Peugeot wasn't really upto the task. Toyota's a different story.

• Only 1 of the 12 Audi drivers (Bonanomi) is a Le Mans rookie, whereas half of Toyota drivers (Buemi, Ishiura, Nakajima) are rookies. 9 Audi drivers have won Le Mans at least once, versus 1 driver (Wurz) for Toyota.

Don't Forget Davidson. Not to mention that Ben and Andre were fresh SuperGt recruits, that managed to get it right on their first go. whos saying that Ishiura and Nakajima cant get it right with some reliability and some luck?

You need to do a background check for some of that .
Treluyer and Lotterer was not "fresh SuperGT recruits".
Peugeot was very much up to the task of challenging Audi, how can you believe anything else?
And, everybody lobbies for better card on their hands, if they have an advantage or not. It's the way of business and will always be.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Gwyllion- He was a rookie with Audi was he not?

Again, who do you mean with "he"? Lotterer and Treluyer have been Audi factory drivers since 2010. Lotterer did his first Le Mans with Kolles in 2009. Treluyer did Le Mans in 2007 and 2008 with the Pescarolo LMP1 and in 2009 with the Pescarolo Peugeot 908.

Originally Posted by TF110

I said the hybrid system has already seen a 24 hour race (which it won). And the newer system which is basically a continuation/evolution of the one in the Supra, has had 3 testing sessions now at least, and one of those was over a period of 30 hours. Even if it was interrupted by issues, it didn't stop the test.

Audi has done at least 3 tests that we are aware of. Audi released pictures and a video from a Paul Ricard test (November 2011), quattroworld shot pictures during a Sebring test (December 2011), someone on the MWM collective toke a picture in Abu Dhabi (January 2012).

Originally Posted by TF110

Whatever your 'source' is, who really believes the Petrol engines are/were down by at least 50hp on the diesels? The torque is what makes up the big acceleration differences. I doubt Toyota's works engine will be short 30hp on Audi's.

The top speed numbers from last year are enough evidence that the diesels had a significant advantage in power. Check the mulsanne's corner news archives.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

• Only 1 of the 12 Audi drivers (Bonanomi) is a Le Mans rookie, whereas half of Toyota drivers (Buemi, Ishiura, Nakajima) are rookies. 9 Audi drivers have won Le Mans at least once, versus 1 driver (Wurz) for Toyota.

Don't Forget Davidson. Not to mention that Ben and Andre were fresh SuperGt recruits, that managed to get it right on their first go. whos saying that Ishiura and Nakajima cant get it right with some reliability and some luck?

I did not forget Davidson. Davidson, Lapierre and Wurz have extensive Le Mans experience, while Buemi, Ishiura, Nakajima have never driven in Le Mans. That makes 3 rookies out of 6 drivers. 3/6 = 50%

[TF110]

@Gwyllion- Last year are the key words. There were no HPD's last year either. Rebellion used a Toyota engine from SuperGT, which is now upgraded but still probably well short of the works Toyota engine. I realize Audi has done testing with their Hybrid, but they've not done a 24hour or 30hour test with it, as Toyota has. And @CTD- Just because there was minor issues with the 30hour test by Toyota, it's not considered a 24hour or more test like Audi and Peugeot? How are you qualified to say that? Did Toyota release information to the public saying that they couldn't complete the # of laps or hours because of a Hybrid issue? If it was a hybrid issue I wouldn't think that was considered 'minor' as the drivers put it.

Listen, guys- I'm not here to argue with you. I like this discussion. But lets not get the facts twisted up and make claims we don't know. A rookie at a team is certainly not a rookie at a certain race. I know this. But it's easy to see that SuperGT is quite a good place to see the driver skills when making the step up to LMPs. I have no doubt that Ishiura and Nakajima will do well. Buemi I'm probably more confident with as going from F1 to LMP is a decrease in speed. Davidson made a good transition as has other Audi drivers, McNish even came from Toyota's F1 project as his latest Formula car drive. I feel the European domination of this sport is going to disappear this year. We'll have DOME and Toyota on top of 3 HPD's. It'll be a great year and I think people give Audi the nod too easily because they've won so much. I think this year they'll be able to be beaten just like they were with Peugeot in the sport.

[tyronnezx]

[QUOTE=CTD;3036222]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

You need to do a background check for some of that .
Treluyer and Lotterer was not "fresh SuperGT recruits".
Peugeot was very much up to the task of challenging Audi, how can you believe anything else?
And, everybody lobbies for better card on their hands, if they have an advantage or not. It's the way of business and will always be.

yeap forgot about that. my apologies. however, you cant deny that Ullrich and Co. will sandbag that extra 30HP until lemans. he's known to play this card for quite some time. however if anyone read the article in Mulsannescorner properly they will realise that the diesels get a 5 liter fuel tank reduction. pretty much means that they loose about 1- 1/1/3 of lap between stints. so they cant really say "we got 35HP more, lets run a Sprint for every stint" because by doing that, you throw the efficiency out the window. at this point i think even the HPD's will challange the Audi's never mind the Toyota's. At the end of the day whoever plays this the right way will endup winning.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by TF110

Listen, guys- I'm not here to argue with you. I like this discussion. But lets not get the facts twisted up and make claims we don't know. A rookie at a team is certainly not a rookie at a certain race.

It doesn't matter because neither of the Audi drivers in 2011 was new to Le Mans or Audi LMP1 cars. The teams were exactly the same as in 2010.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by skeeskirrt

In hindsight, was all that talk about a quick change gearbox last year a bit off the mark? Perhaps they just weren’t ready with the all carbon gearbox/gearcase last year, and the small metallic gearbox suspended in a carbon frame is still less weight than a full metallic gearbox/gearcase? I dunno.

I received confirmation at Petit that the Audi gearbox concept was indeed designed for quick change.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

whos saying that Ishiura and Nakajima cant get it right with some reliability and some luck?

You make it sound easy. Very few drivers have won the 24 hours of Le Mans as a rookie. The last to do it were Wurz in 1996 and Kristensen in 1997.

Maybe another statistic to show how difficult the overall victory in Le Mans can be: McNish has only won twice in 12 starts.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

I realize Audi has done testing with their Hybrid, but they've not done a 24hour or 30hour test with it, as Toyota has.

Audi knows their business. I am sure that the necessary endurance tests are planned between Sebring and Spa. Remember that last year Audi did a simulated endurance test in the post-Sebring test. They drove one car non-stop during the first day, parked it in the garage in the night, and continue the endurance test the next day.

Originally Posted by TF110

Buemi I'm probably more confident with as going from F1 to LMP is a decrease in speed. Davidson made a good transition as has other Audi drivers

I would like to point out that Davidson was not a rookie to Le Mans before he joined Peugeot, because he did it in 2003 with a Prodrive Ferrari 550 and in 2009 with a Lola-Aston Martin LMP1.

Originally Posted by TF110

McNish even came from Toyota's F1 project as his latest Formula car drive.

McNish did not make the transition from F1 to Le Mans. He had already won Le Mans with Porsche in 1998 before he became a Toyota F1 driver.

[TF110]

You take things too literally. I said Davidson went from F1 to driving LeMans. Which is true. McNish also did the same. Regardless of whether he did LeMans or F1 first. The transition was made. Buemi is to get a P2 drive beforehand anyway. Plus he has tested a good deal with Toyota and probably will continue to do so. I'm sure Audi knows what it takes to get things up to speed regarding their Hybrid. But to say that Toyota is on the backfoot because they had slight issues in their 30hr test is wrong IMO. I think they'll be more evenly matched than what people say.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by TF110

You take things too literally. I said Davidson went from F1 to driving LeMans. Which is true. McNish also did the same. Regardless of whether he did LeMans or F1 first.

I'm actually struggling a little to see the point. Drivers go to and from F1 (or have done). Good drivers rise to the top. Where is this going?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm actually struggling a little to see the point. Drivers go to and from F1 (or have done). Good drivers rise to the top. Where is this going?

There is the "theory" that drivers who have only raced in single seaters, need some time to adapt to endurance racing. The argument is that they lack experience with night time driving, conserving the tyres (double/triple/quadruple stints), saving fuel, sharing the car with other drivers (i.e., working towards a shared setup of the car), overtaking slower cars, etc.

Buemi does have good experience with tyre and fuel management with the recent changes in F1 (refueling ban and Pirelli tyres), but the other aspects are probably new to him.

[TF110]

That's the point I was making. I am confident about the SuperGT drivers, but I think I'm more confident with Buemi making a good transition. I think he has talent and I bet he makes a good endurance driver. I'd say the tires on these car are definitely more durable than the Pirelli's he was used to last year though! Does Audi have a dedicated tire development partnership with Michelin?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

That's the point I was making. I am confident about the SuperGT drivers, but I think I'm more confident with Buemi making a good transition. I think he has talent and I bet he makes a good endurance driver. I'd say the tires on these car are definitely more durable than the Pirelli's he was used to last year though! Does Audi have a dedicated tire development partnership with Michelin?

Yes. All major manufactures have. Something HPD/Acura and Pescarolo has been upset about in the past.

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

McNish did not make the transition from F1 to Le Mans. He had already won Le Mans with Porsche in 1998 before he became a Toyota F1 driver.

And in 1999 drove for Toyota in the GT-One which became the F1 testmule later on.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

Yes. All major manufactures have. Something HPD/Acura and Pescarolo has been upset about in the past.

Indeed. Acura never had the correct front tyres to make the ARX-02a work.

However, Pescarolo did like the transition from 33/65-18 to 33/68-18 for the Michelin front tyres in 2006.

At the end of the Preliminary Test Day for the 2006 Le Mans 24 Hours, the Pescarolo-Michelin team declared that it was very pleased with the new 'Audi' tyres! The wider diameter front tyres developed for the new Audi R10 have effectively been made available to Michelin's other LMP1 partners. Some, like Pescarolo, took up the offer, while others – like Swiss Spirit – preferred to stay with their usual tyres.

"As I've already said, the prototypes have a tendency to understeer and one of the ways to combat this is to run bigger diameter front tyres. However, an increase of 30mm necessitates a high number of other chassis- and aerodynamics-related knock-on modifications."

The new tyres were tested on the Pescarolo-Judd at Le Castellet at the end of March before the team reverted to the original dimension for the first two rounds of the Le Mans Series. However, the French team will be back on the new tyres at Le Mans where the Pescarolo-Judds will be directly opposed with the Audi R10s who were at the origin of these new tyres!

source: http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-34925.html

Last year Audi and Peugeot made the transition from 33/68-18 to 36/71-18 for their front tyres. Because of that, Michelin has effectively stopped the development of the narrow front tyre.

So, in order to run the Michelin's latest tyre specification, the privateers are forced to modify their car. Rebellion/Lola adopted the wide front tyre concept last year, Dome is doing it for the S102.5 and Pescarolo chose the AMR-One tub because it is designed for the wide fronts.

In all fairness, the brand new Dyson Lola B12/60 has the same tyre size all around. So Dunlop is also convinced by the benefits of the wide front tyres.