Code 60 for UK

[drewchef]

Originally Posted by Gerryc

I agree that Code 60 is absolutely a better system if practical - but in the UK, radios that flag marshals can hear is very much the exception rather than the rule. As a result, good though it is, I do not feel that it is practical in the UK at the moment. This was the gist of my comments to the MSA.

I wonder if the MSA, if this is implemented, would provide funding for radios at every flag position?

[Mike Kelly 1]

Originally Posted by Gerryc

I agree that Code 60 is absolutely a better system if practical - but in the UK, radios that flag marshals can hear is very much the exception rather than the rule. As a result, good though it is, I do not feel that it is practical in the UK at the moment. This was the gist of my comments to the MSA.

In Dubai the Post Chiefs were on radios and relayed the 5 second countdown to display the code 60 flag to the flag marshals.

[Woolley]

Try that at Silverstone without a megaphone...

Even at other circuits, not all flag points are alongside PCs, assuming there are sufficient PCs for all posts and they're not busy reporting something at the time.

[The Fat Clerk]

All this may of course be irrelevant if:

1) The MSA don't put it in the Blue Book

2) Clubs choose not to put it in their Regs

3) Clerks decide not to use it

[numbersix]

(I've not given the following a great deal of thought so feel free to point out any nonsense.)

Regarding the simultaneous deployment of a Code 60 at all posts.

Surely any advantage (or disadvantage) to drivers produced by a non-simultaneous deployment would unravel itself later on IF the green flags are deployed in a timed manner.

Example:

Suppose C60 is displayed to the leaders as they cross the start line, and the C60s then flow around the circuit. The tail enders may gain a time advantage as discussed earlier.

Logically, provided the green is displayed at the same point the lead cars cross the line, the time advantage will reverse itself - not perfectly, but near enough.

What would be required is that the greens should be timed to deploy at the start line at the same time the leaders cross it or, if they have pitted, the notional time they would have done so (easy to work out based on a 60kph lap).

Replace "the leaders" with "the car that happens to be crossing the start line when C60 is activated" and the logic, I think, should be the same, although I've not thought it through. Need more alcohol.

Of course, once the incident is resolved, the greens might have to be delayed by most of a 60kph lap - but currently we have to wait for the safety car to do likewise so this unavoidable.

Please provide comment. Or alcohol.

Phil

[Mike Kelly 1]

Originally Posted by numbersix

(I've not given the following a great deal of thought so feel free to point out any nonsense.)

Regarding the simultaneous deployment of a Code 60 at all posts.

Surely any advantage (or disadvantage) to drivers produced by a non-simultaneous deployment would unravel itself later on IF the green flags are deployed in a timed manner.

Example:

Suppose C60 is displayed to the leaders as they cross the start line, and the C60s then flow around the circuit. The tail enders may gain a time advantage as discussed earlier.

Logically, provided the green is displayed at the same point the lead cars cross the line, the time advantage will reverse itself - not perfectly, but near enough.

What would be required is that the greens should be timed to deploy at the start line at the same time the leaders cross it or, if they have pitted, the notional time they would have done so (easy to work out based on a 60kph lap).

Replace "the leaders" with "the car that happens to be crossing the start line when C60 is activated" and the logic, I think, should be the same, although I've not thought it through. Need more alcohol.

Of course, once the incident is resolved, the greens might have to be delayed by most of a 60kph lap - but currently we have to wait for the safety car to do likewise so this unavoidable.

Please provide comment. Or alcohol.

Phil

Or just provide radios to ensure a simultaneous flag deployment!

[Norbert]

One of the advantages of the Code 60 is that it can be displayed and withdrawn without having to wait for the leaders to be approaching the startline.

If simultaneous deployment is not possible the following situation could occur.

Car X is approaching the startline as the Code 60 is displayed and slows. Car Y is half way round the circuit and does not slow until the Code 60 flags reach his location. Advantage to Car Y.

The incident is resolved and the Code 60 is withdrawn and green flag displayed as Car Y approaches the startline and that car increases to racing speed. Car X is now half way round the circuit and cannot increase to racing speed until the green flags reach its location. Advantage to Car Y again.

There would be logistics to be sorted out; policing speeds without numerous timing loops, simultaneous deployment etc, but Code 60 has been proved to work and does increase marshal safety.

If the MSA does give the trial the green light it can only be good for UK motor racing and marshals and any clerk that does decide not to use it at all is putting marshal safety lower down their priority list than it should be.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly 1

Or just provide radios to ensure a simultaneous flag deployment!

Yup. Now find someone prepared to spend the money to buy and maintain extra radios (and presumably headsets because you can't hear a damn thing if traffic is going past). Some circuits are still on telephones.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Norbert

...Car X is approaching the startline as the Code 60 is displayed and slows. Car Y is half way round the circuit and does not slow until the Code 60 flags reach his location. Advantage to Car Y.

...as Car Y approaches the startline ...

Agreed. And I'm all in favour of giving C60 a go. My point was that if your Car X was used for both C60 and green, then there is no net advantage.

As the consultation document stands at present, we do NOT have simultaneous deployment and I think it's unlikely that radios will be available at all circuits, (including isolated flag posts). We need to consider solutions to what is, rather than what we want.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Agreed. And I'm all in favour of giving C60 a go. My point was that if your Car X was used for both C60 and green, then there is no net advantage.

As the consultation document stands at present, we do NOT have simultaneous deployment and I think it's unlikely that radios will be available at all circuits, (including isolated flag posts). We need to consider solutions to what is, rather than what we want.

My response to the consultation was pretty much Norbert's scenario regarding the potential advantage to car Y; as a result I'd like to see it re-written in a way which means the signal is only available to circuits/clubs/clerks which/who can make simultaneous circuit-wide comms available to flaggies. IMO that gives enough room for it to be in the book but for a specific club/series/clerk to choose whether they want to adopt it and adjust their resources accordingly.

I appreciate that puts the onus on the clubs/series organisers but I genuinely don't see all UK circuits chipping in for radios+headsets or hard-line systems any time soon.

[racerkeke]

You guys mean to tell me that all flag stations don't have communication, even listen-only? I mean, I can see a remote flag station might not if it's set for sight line but cued as a mirror from the main station. Main station might whistle up the mirror and give the finger countdown for the deploy and later for withdrawal, but are you telling me even that might not be possible? REALLY?
keke

[MGDavid]

you would not believe how backward the circuit facilities are in this country Keke! Those that make a nice fat living out of the venues seem hugely reluctant to invest for the future. Unfortunately because we are an island most 'customers' only race in the UK and don't know any different so put up with it. IMO the MSA could make radio comms part of the circuit operating licence but seem reluctant to show some leadership and rock the boat, maybe they follow the example of the chap that runs the FIA?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Norbert

One of the advantages of the Code 60 is that it can be displayed and withdrawn without having to wait for the leaders to be approaching the startline.

Neither does FCY, just watch the Americans. Flags go out NOW!!! SC just pops out when the leader is tootling past the Start line. The problem with the old battenburg was the need to try to catch the leader on the finish straight instead of just putting it out straight away.

Originally Posted by numbersix

Yup. Now find someone prepared to spend the money to buy and maintain extra radios (and presumably headsets because you can't hear a damn thing if traffic is going past). Some circuits are still on telephones.

I'm going to shout now. LANDLINES.

Originally Posted by racerkeke

You guys mean to tell me that all flag stations don't have communication, even listen-only? I mean, I can see a remote flag station might not if it's set for sight line but cued as a mirror from the main station. Main station might whistle up the mirror and give the finger countdown for the deploy and later for withdrawal, but are you telling me even that might not be possible? REALLY?
keke

Got it in one. See my shout a few lines up. Stuck in the middle of nowhere on your own without any idea of what's happening anywhere and then ambush is with a SC flag which is coming from the direction you don't happen to be looking in. Give us the tools to do the job properly and you'll find we do the job properly. Unfortunately circuits (and FIA/MSA) don't realise that we can actually help them run their meetings properly and safely.

[Gerryc]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Got it in one. See my shout a few lines up. Stuck in the middle of nowhere on your own without any idea of what's happening anywhere and then ambush is with a SC flag which is coming from the direction you don't happen to be looking in. Give us the tools to do the job properly and you'll find we do the job properly. Unfortunately circuits (and FIA/MSA) don't realise that we can actually help them run their meetings properly and safely.

Yeah that!

[racerkeke]

Um. I'm just gobsmacked.

I'll just go along to the SCCA Majors next weekend in California and thank my lucky stars every time a VSC/red gets called (probably during the Miatas). We've had the VSC -- not quite but very close to Code 60 -- option for two years, since all club cars had transponders. We grouse about the radios because landlines are better (and we've had both so we know what we're missing) but we all have something. If nothing else it tells us when it's lunchtime!
keke

[drewchef]

Originally Posted by racerkeke

Um. I'm just gobsmacked.

I'll just go along to the SCCA Majors next weekend in California and thank my lucky stars every time a VSC/red gets called (probably during the Miatas). We've had the VSC -- not quite but very close to Code 60 -- option for two years, since all club cars had transponders. We grouse about the radios because landlines are better (and we've had both so we know what we're missing) but we all have something. If nothing else it tells us when it's lunchtime!
keke

I would love us to have the ability for Code 60 to be deployed simultaneously around the circuit. I'd say that the majority of UK flaggies will carry an analogue scanner giving them the ability to listen to race control. But they are not provided by circuits/clubs, we buy our own. Some circuits have gone digital, which cannot be scanned or the channel to post chiefs in the box is digital.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by drewchef

I would love us to have the ability for Code 60 to be deployed simultaneously around the circuit. I'd say that the majority of UK flaggies will carry an analogue scanner giving them the ability to listen to race control. But they are not provided by circuits/clubs, we buy our own. Some circuits have gone digital, which cannot be scanned or the channel to post chiefs in the box is digital.

I don't, and won't. And they're useless on Silverstone's digital network anyway, which is where you're furthest from a PC.

[racerkeke]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I don't, and won't. And they're useless on Silverstone's digital network anyway, which is where you're furthest from a PC.

Well, that's just the thing, isn't it? Our North American system is based entirely on everything happening simultaneously because the stations all get the info at the same time. If the system you have assumes a "wave" system outward from start-finish -- which reminds me of how we did red flag calls in Canada back in the '70's -- scanners can really screw up the process as it is expected to run by shortcutting the wave.

BTW, do you think part of the reluctance of clubs/tracks etc. to give all flag stations radios is related in part to the cost of digital equipment?

And just a note: I used one of Silverstone's vaunted radios for the GT1 championship weekend just after the new track/Wing was opened. It sucked, in a word. Obviously no one had considered Faraday cage interference from the chainlink when planning the deployment of the radio system. I sure hope it's better now.
keke

[Greem]

Originally Posted by racerkeke

And just a note: I used one of Silverstone's vaunted radios for the GT1 championship weekend just after the new track/Wing was opened. It sucked, in a word. Obviously no one had considered Faraday cage interference from the chainlink when planning the deployment of the radio system. I sure hope it's better now.
keke

Mostly better, but it depends on the club running the meeting and which radio system they're using.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by racerkeke

do you think part of the reluctance of clubs/tracks etc. to give all flag stations radios is related in part to the cost of digital equipment?

Possibly, and also a lack of understanding of the importance of a decent comms system.

Originally Posted by racerkeke

And just a note: I used one of Silverstone's vaunted radios for the GT1 championship weekend just after the new track/Wing was opened. It sucked, in a word. Obviously no one had considered Faraday cage interference from the chainlink when planning the deployment of the radio system. I sure hope it's better now.
keke

They're OK, and the interference is only terminal in a few places... But only the I/Os use Silverstone's system. Flags get either what the organising club provides or nothing. And of course you still can't shout an emergency if someone else is reporting 17 cars for two wheels off somewhere.

[Woolley]

Soooo.... First time using Code60 during the 24 hours...

Firstly, eating humble pie. It works. It works very well, surprisingly impressed and most of my worries eliminated. I didn't need to be photographed during night testing. Have a horrible feeling that's going to appear somewhere where a lot of people will see it!

BUT. It needs good comms. At the 24 hours we had a decent radio system operated by people who knew what they were doing.

But then, we need decent comms anyway, so if this achieves that, I'm voting in favour.

[rotation]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Soooo.... First time using Code60 during the 24 hours...

Firstly, eating humble pie. It works. It works very well, surprisingly impressed and most of my worries eliminated. I didn't need to be photographed during night testing. Have a horrible feeling that's going to appear somewhere where a lot of people will see it!

BUT. It needs good comms. At the 24 hours we had a decent radio system operated by people who knew what they were doing.

But then, we need decent comms anyway, so if this achieves that, I'm voting in favour.

Were you there for the first couple in free practice?
There was no countdown, so it was a bit of a disaster.

I've been a fan of C60 for a while, but if you don't have the count in, and the count out, it's really unfair for competitors.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by rotation

Were you there for the first couple in free practice?
There was no countdown, so it was a bit of a disaster.

All part of the learning experience, it was new for everyone. It was going well once we'd had plenty of practice by the end!

[indigorallye]

We thought we would warm you up to it by depositing our bumper at Copse! Oops!
As a competitor it worked very well.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by indigorallye

We thought we would warm you up to it by depositing our bumper at Copse! Oops!
As a competitor it worked very well.

I'm amazed that stayed in one piece, there were several close calls. But it did give us a chance to warm up our skills before the night time.