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Old 8 Jul 2015, 13:44 (Ref:3556754)   #51
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The Red Bull brand and marketing carnival completely overshadows Renault's contribution.

That's why Renault are moping around looking elsewhere.

Williams was/is just a specialist constructor with no interest in the mass market.

That's why Renault stole the show with Williams back in the day. Williams-Renault victories was stamped with the Renault identity as they were the only mass manufacturer of the partnership.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 11:44 (Ref:3556970)   #52
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spider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridspider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119869

...and if they don't get Aston Martin / re-badged Mercedes, they could be kicking their heals with Renault for a few more years yet.

Interesting that Aston Martin are truly evaluating a badged entry into F1 - I would place a bet that's why Vijay was visiting Le Mans - and I'm sure Nico's efforts in that race will have helped grab AM's attention further.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 17:58 (Ref:3557053)   #53
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im going to put aside the fact that they didnt know which brand they should promote (Renualt or Infiniti), Renault is a multi billion dollar manufacturing company with an advertising reach that spans the globe...i struggle to understand why the failure to promote their own products is the fault of another company's.

anyways they should have used the internet better. its on them imo.
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Old 30 Jul 2015, 08:57 (Ref:3562396)   #54
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An interesting little snippet from Joe Saward on the Red Bull engine saga. They approached Porsche for an engine deal similar to what McLaren/Tag had in the 1980's. The deal fell through because they could not agree on who owned the engine IP.

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015...-the-holidays/

I wonder who else they might have approached Cosworth, AER?
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Old 30 Jul 2015, 15:14 (Ref:3562501)   #55
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So... Porsche does contract engineering work for others. So the idea of someone else owning the IP when done is likely not a showstopper, however I expect there are complexities.

This is a race engine that would likely use techniques from their WEC engine. So Porsche likely wants to continue to keep some of that solution hidden away while they are using some of that tech internally. Level of money and if RB is expecting Porsche to have skin in the game (i.e. fund some of the development) might also factor in handing over the IP.

What I can imagine is Porsche providing a customer engine like anyone else, but they would own the IP (like any other provider). But I can't see Porsche agreeing to an F1 engine program unless they had significant funding from someone else (such as RB) given their focus on WEC. But that gets right back into if RB provides a lot of the funding, they would maybe expect to own the IP.

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Old 30 Jul 2015, 16:06 (Ref:3562520)   #56
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So... Porsche does contract engineering work for others. So the idea of someone else owning the IP when done is likely not a showstopper, however I expect there are complexities.

This is a race engine that would likely use techniques from their WEC engine. So Porsche likely wants to continue to keep some of that solution hidden away while they are using some of that tech internally. Level of money and if RB is expecting Porsche to have skin in the game (i.e. fund some of the development) might also factor in handing over the IP.

What I can imagine is Porsche providing a customer engine like anyone else, but they would own the IP (like any other provider). But I can't see Porsche agreeing to an F1 engine program unless they had significant funding from someone else (such as RB) given their focus on WEC. But that gets right back into if RB provides a lot of the funding, they would maybe expect to own the IP.

Richard
Porsche could enter into a funding agreement similar to the one they had with TAG in the '80s when they were the engine supplier to McLaren.
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Old 30 Jul 2015, 17:37 (Ref:3562541)   #57
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Porsche could enter into a funding agreement similar to the one they had with TAG in the '80s when they were the engine supplier to McLaren.
I think in that scenario TAG paid 100% of the development bill and probably got the IP. I wonder if RB doesn't want to pay that large of a bill? And to my point above, would Porsche sell the IP to an engine that may be very similar to their current WEC engine? Also it is my understanding that many feel Porsche got the better end of the TAG deal (lots of good Porsche PR with no investment on the Porsche end). So others may be wary of replicating that situation?

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Old 30 Jul 2015, 18:00 (Ref:3562550)   #58
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I think in that scenario TAG paid 100% of the development bill and probably got the IP. I wonder if RB doesn't want to pay that large of a bill? And to my point above, would Porsche sell the IP to an engine that may be very similar to their current WEC engine? Also it is my understanding that many feel Porsche got the better end of the TAG deal (lots of good Porsche PR with no investment on the Porsche end). So others may be wary of replicating that situation?

Richard
The Porsche WEC engine is a different spec from the current F1 PUs so I don't see the IP for the WEC engine being compromised.
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Old 30 Jul 2015, 19:37 (Ref:3562584)   #59
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The Porsche WEC engine is a different spec from the current F1 PUs so I don't see the IP for the WEC engine being compromised.
I am talking about the small details that makes engines not just good, but great. Those tricks (secret sauce) would apply to a similar F1 engine even if the configuration, displacement, etc. is different. I expect there would be more similarities than differences between a bespoke WEC and F1 power unit (given the current rules).

This is all just speculation on my end. Who knows why it didn't work out. If anything, I suspect Porsche just doesn't want or need the distraction. Maybe they put out unrealistic preconditions (you pay the bills and we keep the IP) to force RB to go away.

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Old 30 Jul 2015, 19:38 (Ref:3562585)   #60
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The Porsche WEC engine is a different spec from the current F1 PUs so I don't see the IP for the WEC engine being compromised.
Agreed but I would think there is technology in the WEC power unit that is F1 relevant and I would think Porsche would like to keep that to themselves for as long as possible. The other thing is Porsche uses ERS, KERS and batteries all F1 relevant, where as the other LMP1 manu's use different systems that are not usable in F1.
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Old 31 Jul 2015, 11:27 (Ref:3562786)   #61
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Look at the proposition from Porsche's view point and it makes sense that they might be reluctant or plain just do not want any part of it and as an aside we only have one person's word that the proposition was ever floated. Wasn't it Audi last week or Volkswagon the week before, call me a cynic but until I have a statement from either party I will remain sceptical.

The problems Porsche face...

If it turns into a Honda like problem they have egg on their face, it happened once and could happen again.

The length of time to another set of regs just about makes it impossible to get more than one season of racing before they have to build another PU to a different set of regs.

The lack of in car on track testing that is allowed sets them up to fail before they start. They could bung it into a sports car I suppose and test it ala Ferrari was reported to have done but most probably didn't.

They have made a commitment to run in WEC so why dilute their resources and run the risk of robbing one project of their full attention by taking on another.

If it went belly up then RB will get stuck into them as they have done with Renault.

I can't think of one good reason for them to do it.
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Old 31 Jul 2015, 15:14 (Ref:3562831)   #62
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Agreed but I would think there is technology in the WEC power unit that is F1 relevant and I would think Porsche would like to keep that to themselves for as long as possible. The other thing is Porsche uses ERS, KERS and batteries all F1 relevant, where as the other LMP1 manu's use different systems that are not usable in F1.
Fair enough. Personally, I think Porsche are best off steering well clear of F1. The last thing they need to do is get involved in the nonsense that makes up the F1 Circus.
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Old 31 Jul 2015, 15:28 (Ref:3562839)   #63
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I can't think of one good reason for them to do it.
money isnt necessarily a good reason but RB apparently pay the most for their PU deal and if RB's back is against a wall then perhaps they are prepared to pay even more for that supply so Porsche could have a large financial interest in getting involved.
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Old 1 Aug 2015, 04:36 (Ref:3562989)   #64
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money isnt necessarily a good reason but RB apparently pay the most for their PU deal and if RB's back is against a wall then perhaps they are prepared to pay even more for that supply so Porsche could have a large financial interest in getting involved.
That is most probably the last reason they would do it. The only reason I can think of would be the kudos involved in beating MB and no way can they do that within the time left before the regs change again. As Honda have found out the hard way, F1 is basically a closed shop once the regs have matured over a couple of seasons. If everyone gets on board at the beginning then it is a level playing field in theory but even that is not so as we have seen and leads to a lopsided competition.
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Old 5 Aug 2015, 16:57 (Ref:3563974)   #65
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What's the timeframe Red Bull are going to have to make a final deciscion on a 2016 power unit for their and TR's car in order to be in time for next season?
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Old 6 Aug 2015, 05:00 (Ref:3564069)   #66
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What's the timeframe Red Bull are going to have to make a final deciscion on a 2016 power unit for their and TR's car in order to be in time for next season?
That question might better be....What other option do they have....the answer is none if you accept that RB will not use customer engines from anyone.
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Old 9 Aug 2015, 03:16 (Ref:3564749)   #67
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RB using the secondary team to drive the agenda they want??

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120249

Rather than beating the same drum from the same book from the same people have RB changed tack and brought in more troops to push their agenda?
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Old 9 Aug 2015, 03:23 (Ref:3564752)   #68
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"But currently people are not interested because they know the result beforehand, so for me, development of the engines should simply be free." Tost.

Who can argue with this?
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Old 9 Aug 2015, 04:41 (Ref:3564772)   #69
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"But currently people are not interested because they know the result beforehand, so for me, development of the engines should simply be free." Tost.

Who can argue with this?
There is a lot more wrong with F1 before they get to motors. The besic infrastructure of management needs a good overhaul as it was that that got it to where it is now. You have to fix the tools before you can do the job.
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Old 9 Aug 2015, 05:03 (Ref:3564775)   #70
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There is a lot more wrong with F1 before they get to motors. The besic infrastructure of management needs a good overhaul as it was that that got it to where it is now. You have to fix the tools before you can do the job.

You're right Casper, but currently if you don't have a Merc you are nowhere!

The galling bit, is you cannot fix it either!
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Old 9 Aug 2015, 07:07 (Ref:3564800)   #71
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You're right Casper, but currently if you don't have a Merc you are nowhere!

The galling bit, is you cannot fix it either!
It can be fixed but not under the present rules. The inmates were let loose in the asylum and now they have no one answers to fix their self created predicament which is rather ironic. Looking back it seems to have been a problem for at least a decade if not longer, they make changes without knowing the answers or even asking the questions and as managers they are self centred individuals who lack the foresight and skill to understand the ramifications of their decisions. I wonder if they ever look back and try and understand what went wrong and why and then ask themselves if someone else might do a better job. I also wonder if they ask themselves if they are good enough to make the decisions needed to sort out the mess that they themselves created.
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Old 9 Aug 2015, 08:34 (Ref:3564812)   #72
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Each team must have hoped they would be the team to catch, knowing that the rule restrictions would make it difficult for those doing the catching. That is the ultimate in arrogance really, not contemplating a situation where you are not the best.

That said, Ferrari are making gains on Mercedes. You just can't argue that fact, so it is possible to improve under the current rules. It is as simple as that. It would obviously be better if Renault and Honda were in the same league, but is that kind of parity what we want in F1? Perhaps Renault just don't know what they are doing, and no matter how much money, tokens or abuse they get, they just can't overcome the performance and reliability hurdles.

Part of me is happy, because I like the technical aspect of F1, and the fact that one team got it right and is rewarded for their effort. I think people forget this aspect. But of course I want to see close racing. The problem is, do I want to see a team who did well, disadvantaged in some way to advantage the others and help them catch? Not really.

As far as decision makers, I think engineers need to be involved, so the decision makers know what effect their changes will actually have on the cars and the subsequent racing. But, these engineers should not be from the teams, without question. Teams are not going to make decisions that benefit the racing and the fans, they are going to make decisions that benefit solely themselves.

Last edited by mikuni; 9 Aug 2015 at 08:47.
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Old 9 Aug 2015, 08:52 (Ref:3564814)   #73
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Teams are not going to make decisions that benefit the racing and the fans, they are going to make decisions that benefit solely themselves.
That is a case of bad management, the category becomes less likely to be watched and it is really a case of financial suicide because of greed. The current existing management driven by the teams is exactly the wrong thing because they don't think of what is good for the category rather what they think is good for their team. Stupid people.
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Old 14 Aug 2015, 02:06 (Ref:3565937)   #74
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Here we go, Mercedes power for RBR?

http://www.pitpass.com/54417/Red-Bul...-in-a-quandary


Quandary, what would F1 look like without RBR?
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Old 4 Sep 2015, 09:27 (Ref:3571301)   #75
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I know this sounds ridiculous, but RedBull perhaps need to look deep into the 2016 crystal ball and consider the Honda power unit.......yes I know is nothing but embarrassing for McLaren at the moment, but come March 2016 I can imagine it will be sorted, or at least 95% there, then RB will have a premium A-spec power unit and not ever in the situation of buying B-spec mercedes units, and generally being Mercedes bihatch.......Also Hondas UK F1 base is in Milton Keynes.....I have said it before and been shot down in flames, but it wouldnt surprise me to see RebBull-Honda happen.....I dare say they would need to off-load Infiniti sponsorship in the process.
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