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Old 25 Sep 2002, 23:58 (Ref:388521)   #1
Barbarosa
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The Biggest Shark in the tank...

It's no secret that the Florida Mafia and Anton "Fredo" George see themselves as the big sharks in American racing. Enough so that they have ruthlessly tried to crush any and all opposition to their dominion over the racing seas on this side of the Atlantic. But, what both the France Family and Tony George keep forgetting is that they are really small fish compared to the monster lurking just out of sight to the east. And in the end, Chris Pook might just have the last laugh after all.

In a couple of threads there has been mention of Pook and some of the other top people from CART spending time in Europe, and a lot of speculation as to why. Is Pook looking for another venue to expand into? Or does he have something more diabolical in mind for the would be assassins of Open Wheel Racing in North America? Perhaps the biggest clue is in Chris Pook's own statement, and it's one that the Florida Mafia ought to really be worried about. Pook sees CART as THE feeder series for F1.

Now most of us, myself included, looked at that statement and shrugged. It is a well known fact that the biggest shark in the racing waters is none other than F1's Boss of Bosses, Bernie Ecclestone. And it is another well known fact that Bernie is a friend of Tony George. But what we all seemed to forget, especially Anton "Fredo" George, is that Bernie's also a friend of none other than Chris Pook. And there is not a more ruthless killer in the seas than Godfather Bernie.

There are too many other numerous links that can be drawn to the conclusion that the Boss of Bosses might be about to accomplish what he has publicly wanted for sometime now: Control of Open Wheel Racing in North America.

Anyway, it's something to think about. Here's the article from Champ Web on it:

CART's Future

There are some really good points in this from a fan's point of view, and some not so good ones, like Bernie might be ten times worse than the little Don's of IMS and the Florida Mafia. But, Bernie certainly knows how to put on a show.

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Old 26 Sep 2002, 01:03 (Ref:388538)   #2
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Frankly, most of us are over here because we loathe and deplore what Bernie has done to Formula One -- that is, he has turned it in to WWF-1, homogenized its pilots into little stepford robots prattling the party line, hired because they look cute in the sponsor's clothes, and utterly incapable of driving a real race car if you held a gun to their head.

The only spectre worse than having the world revert to racing in circles would be to have Uncle Bernie homogenize the life out of Champ Cars and turn it into another audioanamatronic road show with inaccssible drivers, outrageously priced tickets and absolutely no suspense.

No thanks.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 01:34 (Ref:388547)   #3
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I trust Chris Pook enough that he won't let it become the clinical lab that F1 has become. A shot in the arm from Ford and Bernie isn't a bad thing but it depends on Bernie's intentions doesn't it. Which goes back to trusting Chris Pook.

Not sure about the TG angle, he has the IRL and wouldn't want the competition from Bernie and Pook. I guess we have to remember, Bernie's deal with TG is for F1, Bernie probably considers this unrelated if it affects the IRL, different issue.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 01:39 (Ref:388549)   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liz
Frankly, most of us are over here because we loathe and deplore what Bernie has done to Formula One -- that is, he has turned it in to WWF-1, homogenized its pilots into little stepford robots prattling the party line, hired because they look cute in the sponsor's clothes, and utterly incapable of driving a real race car if you held a gun to their head.


Did you *just* start watching racing? F1 is less corporate than CART, and a ton less corporate than NASCAR. The amount of times the team sponsor is mentioned in a press conference during the season can be counted on about one hand.

Real race cars? F1 cars destroy CART cars and race on some of the finest tracks in the world. But I guess because you've been brainwashed into thinking Monaco is sterlized and Long Beach is a great test of driving talent you can be forgiven for thinking this way.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 03:06 (Ref:388577)   #5
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Right Russ.... Anyone who doesn't agree with you is ignorant and slow-witted. Give it up before you kill any credibility you've ever had in this forum. Oops, too late.

Anyways, now that that's said...

Pook isn't a lover of personality himself. One of his first decrees when he came to power in CART was that any driver who showed up with a 2 day-old beard had better make that his look from now own, because he wouldn't tolerate drivers showing up looking like they'd just rolled out of bed.

CART can't stand alone any longer, though... They'll have to form alliances with _someone_. Don Panoz and IMSA are probably the least damaging allies for CART... But they're also the weakest.

The FIA are the biggest shark, without a doubt. Becoming a sort of western hemisphere F3000 series would work very well in the short team, protecting them from Tony and the Frances... But it wouldn't take long before the FIA started making assanine dictates to CART... They obviously can't come up with decent rules packages for their own series.

Either one, though, is preferable to the only options offered by the third group, Anthony and the Florida mafia... Surrender, or utter annihilation.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 03:32 (Ref:388582)   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Right Russ.... Anyone who doesn't agree with you is ignorant and slow-witted. Give it up before you kill any credibility you've ever had in this forum. Oops, too late.

Actually I would have used that to describe Liz' narrow minded view of the racing world, but id rather not get another PM about forum content. Im not really here for 'credibility' and wasnt aware that I had any, but thats cool because based on most of the opinions here if im 180degrees im on the right track.

Lets be honest people, CART isnt the center of the racing world. Id struggle to even call it a world player, at the moment its struggling behind the global herd of all types of racing.

I dont see a problem with the FIA. Being a world wide motorsports and automotive body its natural and intentional that they'd have a wide ranging and powerful reach.

And whats the problem with the F1 rules package? Its the single most technologically advanced racing series in the world. Its managed to make grooved tires as durable and as grippy as slicks. Though when it comes to trickle down technology for the automotive world Le Mans probably has that cornered, see the Audi FSI system for details.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 04:13 (Ref:388589)   #7
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Actually, Pook has been talking a lot with Panoz. And it's not a bad match, except that they are in that "we better hang together or else" situation. From what I've heard it sounds more like Panoz has quite resigned himself to the fact that ALMS is in trouble, since they aren't owned by the Florida Mafia and Bill France can't really tolerate any competition, and doesn't want to relinquish power over his baby anymore than anyone else.

And as for Champ Car vs F1's, I've gotten a lot of first hand accounts on which is better and seen a lot of side by side comparisons over the years. What it usually comes down to is the brakes. Champ Cars blow F1's off the track on speed. But, once the brakes get warmed up, they make up the time on the corners. And that advantage is negated if you find the right line. In fact, I watched an underpowered T91 Lola this weekend almost bury a 93 Ferrari F1.

Who has the advantage changes year to year. F1's are a more prestigeous ride. It's kind of like comparing a BMW against a Mercedes. Performace wise they are pretty close. But, you historically pay a lot more for Mercedes than you do for BMW.

As for Uncle Bernie, like I said, that's a double edged sword, Liz. Gives me the shakes just thinking about it. On the one side, if he buys in, which I think would be far more likely than his buying out, CART does become the feeder series for F1 the way Pook wants. But part of what makes CART a great fan event is the fans being able to get into the paddock and get up close and personal with the drivers and cars.

Ultimately it's what is missing from F1. And Bernie likes it that way. It gives F1 this exotic air I guess. But, for North American fans who are used to CART events where they can wander through the Paddock, it is as snobbish and stupid as most F1 Europhile race fans who think the world begins and ends with European racing.

The idea of not being able to wander through Road America's paddock during CART race weekend takes a good piece of the fun out of the experience.

As for CART becoming NA's F3000 circuit, I'm not so sure it would. Bernie has been after that Spec racing league for a while. And since Premire One looks stillborn, CART gives him a lower cost alternative. It also gives him a place for younger drivers wanting to eventually move up to F1, and Vets who don't have a ride to prove they are still razor sharp.

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Old 26 Sep 2002, 04:15 (Ref:388590)   #8
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Russfeld, is it possible for you to ever agree with anyone, or not be extremely condescending to people... I just noticed that you seem incapable of actually raising any ideas of your own (in any of the forums here), but you are extremely good and quick at criticising and putting other ideas down. Kind of like that person sitting at the back of the boardroom table that never has any ideas of his own, but is always the first one to tell the speaker how their ideas are ****.

For the last time, Cart is not trying to be Formula One, and nobody who is involved with the series wants it to be. Cart is simply trying to provide the best open-wheel racing product possible on road courses, street circuits and ovals to people that want it. If you don't want it, (as I can't remember you ever saying anything positive about it on this forum) then nobody is forcing you to buy tickets or watch it on TV.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 04:19 (Ref:388591)   #9
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Ive tried to explain where some of the views are wrong and educate on how racing *actually* works, but if you choose to ignore it then you're the guy at the boardroom to arrogant to consider another idea.

I watch CART, I enjoy it to a degree; but im not going to pretend its something its nor or help promote the idea that it is.

Last edited by Russfeld; 26 Sep 2002 at 04:21.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 04:24 (Ref:388592)   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Barbarosa


And as for Champ Car vs F1's, I've gotten a lot of first hand accounts on which is better and seen a lot of side by side comparisons over the years. What it usually comes down to is the brakes. Champ Cars blow F1's off the track on speed. But, once the brakes get warmed up, they make up the time on the corners. And that advantage is negated if you find the right line. In fact, I watched an underpowered T91 Lola this weekend almost bury a 93 Ferrari F1.
Thats factually inaccurate. And if you doubt me call Peter Gibbons at Newman-Haas. The gap pole to pole was 6 seconds on a short lap. Thats a little more than 'just brakes' They're giving up 3.5 seconds just on weight. The *only* area where a CART car is comparable to F1 and in someways possibly has an advantage is in curb compliance do to lessened pitch sensitivity because of its reliance on ground effects instead of a diffuser. It doesnt brake as well, it doesnt corner as well, nor does it accelerate or have a comparable top end.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 04:39 (Ref:388595)   #11
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Russ. Not to burst your bubble or anything, but I spend a lot of time with a lot of drivers, professional and ameteurs. Weight has some to do with it, but not a whole lot. It's the brakes. I know, because I seen the raw data everytime we run the Benetton and Ferraris, and compare them against the Lolas just to know which cars to run during the races. You want to argue with me, fine. But, know what the hell you're talking about first. Reading Autosport in the bathroom doesn't mean your knowledgeable.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 04:54 (Ref:388596)   #12
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Gee, I'm glad to know there is a person here who knows how racing "actually" works. That's pretty damned arrogant.

That off my chest, I'd personally love to see CART and ALMS get together. Some of the most fun racing weekends I spent in my life were when the Champ Cars and the IMSA cars ran thier races together at Laguna Seca. The GTP's would come out and set a track record and then the Champ Cars would come out and break it and the same thing would happen again the next session. It was awesome. I also think it was good for both series. Losing the GTP's was a racing heartbreaker to me. I really loved those cars.

CART grew tremendously during those years and I can see great opportunity for the two series to hook up and make a go of it. What the fans want is to see great racing for the weekend. Having some diversity in the look of the cars makes things more interesting too. I think most people would be hard pressed to say that they would rather see a couple of classes of cars that look pretty much the same driving in circles for three days straight vs. a couple of classes of open wheelers and a couple of the sports car classes going at it for the weekend. The paddock is more interesting this way too.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 04:55 (Ref:388597)   #13
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No disrespect, but working with old F1 cars driven by gentlemen drivers doesnt really cut it against professionally run teams in professional series.

Weight, after tires, is the single biggest effect on a car. It affects the braking, acceleration, and cornering. The braking difference is mainly one of the weight of the rotor, not the coefficient of friction. The weight difference between CART and F1 at Montreal accounted for 3.5 seconds. Those are the exact and direct words from Peter Gibbons, chief eng at Newman-Haas. So if you dont want to take my word for it thats fine but I dont think you can liken Mr Gibbon's information and experience to reading autosport in the john.

If you want a proper article on CART vs F1 technically at Montreal check out http://www.atlasf1.com/2002/bel/preview/stonefeld.html or if you dont have a membership get it from http://ross.stonefeld.com/atlasf1-20...-stonefeld.pdf It was put together with the assistance of the Newman-Haas engineering and marketing teams, so its not a spin piece for F1.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 05:15 (Ref:388603)   #14
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We've been down this road before. Champ Cars are not F1 cars nor vice versa. They are each single seat, open wheel, purpose built, racing cars, at which point the comparison ends because the purpose for which they were built is so different.

Last edited by Flatspot; 26 Sep 2002 at 05:16.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 05:47 (Ref:388619)   #15
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Quote:
I watched an underpowered T91 Lola this weekend almost bury a 93 Ferrari F1
Barbarosa, just out of curiosity, do you know the HP and weight of the Lola T91 and the 93 Ferrari F1? I would be interested to see how the two compare. There are many other factors involved, namely the aerodynamics, but as an engineer, it's interesting to me.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 11:24 (Ref:388767)   #16
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Russfeld, for your information if you care about facts at all, my daddy was a stock car racer in the fifties and that's when I started in racing. I was an F1 follower until Prost retired and Senna died and I know quite a lot about the Turbo Era, for example, when the pilots were allowed to race each other and had personalities that were separate and distinct from one another and were allowed to speak their minds. (Except for Prost calling his Ferrari "that truck"). If you think the current F1 drivers, who are basically interchangeable, are more exciting than Prost, Senna, Mansell, Villeneuve (the elder), Lafitte and Hunt, you are obviously content with a series that is extremely youthful and very bland. And welcome to it.

I'd like to see ALMS and CART run together too. It'd make my life as a journalist much easier!
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 12:15 (Ref:388798)   #17
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Yes F1 is the pinnacle of high tech motor sports. It has the best engineers, the best materials, best test labs, the supposedly best drivers, the best and most money, a global, huge fan base and television ratings that make baseball cringe. Yet is it the "most" fun to watch? I don't think so. I still watch it for the show. Twenty years ago I watched it for the racing.

I like to think that I have enough intelligence to see why my perspective has changed over the years. It has nothing to do with brake materials, drag, weight, or "curb compliance do to lessened pitch sensitivity" it has everything to do with that "feeling" I get when I go to a race or sit my behind on my rec room chair and urge the driver, car, pit-crew to make the damn lap times quicker while squishing the driver, the team, the owner, you dislike (ganassi?) in your team's tire smoke!

For me some types of racing still generate that feeling. F1 stopped doing that years ago. Unlike most people that complain about this situation I think any series that as an open formula and the resources to feed it will always have this problem. The machines become better than the humans can effectively control.....kinda sounds like a bad sci-fi movie.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 15:05 (Ref:388890)   #18
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Originally posted by FastCar5
Yes F1 is the pinnacle of high tech motor sports. It has the best engineers, the best materials, best test labs, the supposedly best drivers, the best and most money, a global, huge fan base and television ratings that make baseball cringe. Yet is it the "most" fun to watch? I don't think so. I still watch it for the show. Twenty years ago I watched it for the racing.
At 24 years old, I'm still a pup when it comes to auto racing IQ, no matter how large my video and magazine collection is or how many subscriptions I hold today, or how I spend 8 out of my 9 working hours on racing websites. "Days of Thunder" hit me at the right time, but it was my collection of Ferrari F1 matchbox cars, the look of the Lotus 72 and a Kraco slot car that was soooo much cooler.

F1 today though? It's the show, the best of everything, the untouchable and exotic of exotics. And sometimes JPM makes a great pass on Schuey and i'm hooked again. Bernie is indeed the largest shark, and if he's hungry, I'd make sure I was right behind him, because just like a shark, Bernie can't go backward.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 16:17 (Ref:388932)   #19
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Yes, F1 is a show. But it isn't racing, any more than wrestling is a sport. That doesn't mean people can't enjoy it for what it is, and many people do.

HOWEVER, I don't. I want to see the Prodrive Ferrari drag racing the KnightHawk MG Lola down the Mulsanne Straight and be able to shout "HOW DID ENGE DO THAT?" without the sure and certain knowledge that Enge's contract specifies that he gets to outdrag 675 cars until he bursts into flames or they do. (And both are a pretty good bet, unfortunately.) I love to see Sascha Maasen and Timo Bernhard racing each other, though they are teammates, and not that Maasen's contract specifies that no matter how good Timo is on any given day, he cannot beat his teammate.

I like a good show now and then. But I like racing, real racing, more. And I don't think Bernie knows diddly squat about real, mano e mano racing, or fans either.

P.S. Have you read this week's Autosport and their concession that the only way to make the Americans attend the USGP is to make it more like, er, NASCAR, ALMS and CART?
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 16:43 (Ref:388947)   #20
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I like a good show now and then. But I like racing, real racing, more. And I don't think Bernie knows diddly squat about real, mano e mano racing, or fans either.

P.S. Have you read this week's Autosport and their concession that the only way to make the Americans attend the USGP is to make it more like, er, NASCAR, ALMS and CART?
I hate that the most popular form of auto racing in America is NASCAR. Sure its the largest and easiest to view. I hate that a majority of the fans think these are the finest and most talented drivers in America and anything that refutes that belief is "hogwash". It does however take "racing" talent and a certain driving skill to drive NASCAR (or IRL for that matter), nothing should be taken away from those athletes.

True driving skill and finesse depends on many different facets of speed and intelligence. The point at which you brake before a corner, how you hit the apex, how much speed you carry to the next corner, and the next corner, then position yourself for the overtake, and then the sooner you can get the throttle mashed to the floor while still keeping the car in a straight line is where you use every sense of the human body that controls that car. IMO that's true driving. Now if only I can define "racing".
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 17:10 (Ref:388970)   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liz

I want to see the Prodrive Ferrari drag racing the KnightHawk MG Lola down the Mulsanne Straight and be able to shout "HOW DID ENGE DO THAT?" without the sure and certain knowledge that Enge's contract specifies that he gets to outdrag 675 cars until he bursts into flames or they do.

See I dont call that racing. An F3000 champion and professional driver passing a gentlemen racer in a completely different class is not racing. That said Enge on the Corvette at Laguna was nice.

I think F1 is fine. Ive never watched road racing for racing, ive watched it for driving. Generally there is very little actual racing on road courses. CART doesnt have a ton of passing compared to F1, so why all the dumping on Grand Prix racing? What sucks about F1 is the TV coverage,t hey dont show the many battles going on in the midfield unless you've got digital.

Passing happens for two reasons on a road course. Either the guy ahead makes a mistake, or you are drastically faster than him. In the upper levels of road racing the drivers just dont make mistakes and get passed. Sure you can blame that on TC, auto gears, et al but you'd be wrong. There's even less passing in the sepc series of Formula Ford, Formula 3, Formula 3000, etc. So we've elimintaed mistakes. Now speed. If you're .5 seconds a lap quicker, good luck. Over a 90 second lap and 17 corners thats nothing. You'd have to be making that .5 up under braking for ONE corner to have a realistic chance of passing someone. The biggest problem is the tracks are too fast. Thats even the case in the junior formulas. You barely have to brake for so many corners even if you get sorta alongside someone you're going to have a really hard time passing them under braking. Braking 5metres later at the 500metre board you can make it by. Braking 5etres later at the 50metre board and you're going to end up in the fence.

It just seems logical to me that the first place qualifier would pull away from the slower second place qualifier, who is pulling away from the even slower third place qualifier etc. I love watching the Hungarian GP because its amazing to watch the cars and drivers work. There's barely one straight. Even when a guy is pulling out a second a lap I enjoy it because im watching some of the best DRIVING in the world. That said Im not enjoying this year too much because Michael is just running away and he's not even giving his car a good whipping.

If you think F1 is down on hand-to-hand combat you clearly havent been watching. JPM and Kimi have been pulling some seriously sweet moves on each other this season.

If I want good racing ill watch ovals. The cars and tracks are pretty simplistic to drive, and it lends itself to lots of on track action. So really Road courses are about driving, ovals are about racing. I like watching both in various doses.

We know you dont like F1 and thats fine. But you dont have to be so illogical and biased about it.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 17:50 (Ref:389010)   #22
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Point taken Russ.

But I do not view any point expressed so far by any of the authors as being "illogical or biased". I think we all share a love for motorsports. You feel that the state of f1 is "fine". Many others do not agree. It is a matter of opinion.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 18:05 (Ref:389020)   #23
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Fastcar5, the last five words of your last sentence says it all. It is all a matter of opinion. When you start comparing anything against anything else, you are always gonna have differences of opinions. What we need to do as fans is stop trying to compare one against the other. They are all different. Someone may have a preference for one over another, but it doesn't make it "better". By the same token, it doesn't make the one not preferred "worse". I like all forms of racing. Some just better than others.
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Old 26 Sep 2002, 20:29 (Ref:389130)   #24
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It has been said before -- opinions are neither right nor wrong. They are opinions.

When you compare Senna and Prost to Kimi and JPM, though, you lose me totally. Watching two guys duke it out for seventh place just doesn't do a thing for me, especially when they both have to stop and pull over to let TGF pass by.

When you compare Gilles Villeneuve and Mario Andretti to Felipe Massa and Nick Heidfeld, you make me want to cry for the days when men were men and cars were cars.

But the arguments are what make racing interesting.

P.S. For those who never took a debating course, "You are stupid" is not an argument. "I disagree with you because ... " followed by facts (not including your opinion of someone else's intelligence) is an argument.
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"If we won all the time, we'd be as unpopular as Ferrari, and we want to avoid that. We enjoy being a team that everybody likes." Flavio Briatore
Old 26 Sep 2002, 21:01 (Ref:389186)   #25
Russfeld
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Join Date: Oct 2001
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Russfeld should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Who compared Kimi and Juan to Senna and Prost? Though the comparison could be made. And since they drive for Ferrari's rivals, I dont see how they are obligated to help him out. And you're little TGF obsession is wearing a little thin
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