More trouble at Silverstone - again!

[wolfhound]

A lot of the problems that F1 has have been festering in the background under CVC's ownership. It will be interesting to see how new owners Liberty deal with the situation assuming they stabilize the various financial problems that are there Silverstone just being a visible example of them.
Silverstone could trigger the break clause and at the same time negotiate a new contract that will allow the GP become sustainable into the future.
As Moneyseeker says "Poker time"

[Mike Harte]

A number of people are assuming that Liberty will be taking over, and that that will be a good idea; I have my doubts.

They will have to borrow significant funds to effect this purchase, possibly up to 90% of the purchase price, and that is not a good place to start. In fact it reminds me of the German media company (EM Tv) that controlled FOM for a very limited time until their debts dragged it down, which led to the banks having to take control.

Apart from that, there are already three investigations in the pipeline over this takeover, the most serious threat being the one being initiated by the EU.

I think that it's far from being a done deal.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

A number of people are assuming that Liberty will be taking over, and that that will be a good idea; I have my doubts.

They will have to borrow significant funds to effect this purchase, possibly up to 90% of the purchase price, and that is not a good place to start. In fact it reminds me of the German media company (EM Tv) that controlled FOM for a very limited time until their debts dragged it down, which led to the banks having to take control.

Apart from that, there are already three investigations in the pipeline over this takeover, the most serious threat being the one being initiated by the EU.

I think that it's far from being a done deal.

Sorry to contradict you Mike but I thought I'd read on Joe Saward's Blog (not a good time for him & his family at the moment) that the EU had said there were no reasons why the sale couldn't take place?
I'll check later & will post a link (even if I'm right or wrong!)

[VIVA GT]

Sorry, but I can't seem to be able to post a link to the specific post, but if you go to http://www.joeblogsf1.com/ and scroll down to December 18th you'll find a post entitled 'Liberty gets the all-clear'.
(This may not be true, but I've generally found Joe to be reliable).

[Mike Harte]

Only seems to be Saward reporting it, as far as I can see. However, there is also the formal complaint from Sauber and Force India that also impacts on the sale that has to be resolved, and that investigation is very much alive, even according to Mr Ecclestone.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

It seems like Silverstone is seriously looking at activating the break clause in its GP contract because of the escalator clause in the contract. It needs to be done before this years race to take effect in 2019.
Bernie claims to have 2 others circuits willing to run a British GP, question is where and paid for by whom? If a race with a race day attendance of over 100,000 and the one the highest ticket prices out there cannot make money from a GP who can?

Over to you at Liberty Media.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/si...n-2017-863265/

Run it at Rockingham. Quite a fitting venue as its utterly soulless like F1 is. I'd rather them take a butchers knife to that place rather than destroying one of our great, historic UK venues.

[steve_r]

The infield circuit at Rockingham suits BTCC, but would not be any good for F1.

[old man]

With "The Home of Motorsport" causing worries and Manor in admin it may concentrate minds at Liberty.

Did they not raise a heap of money in December on the strength of the deal?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

A number of people are assuming that Liberty will be taking over, and that that will be a good idea; I have my doubts.

admittedly i have my doubts as well. certainly i am hopeful that the change will be a positive one but as is often the case, the devil you know is better than the one you don't.

at the end of the day Liberty is a media company. they want people watching the races on their TVs, computers, mobile devices so they may not care where the races are held as the audience they are looking to get at is at home and not at any given race track.

[GT6]

We seem to have this Silverstone to loss GP story so often now that no one takes much notice, perhaps if they did not cry wolf so often people would actually take notice

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Why do you believe that those you quote would be more exercised about the loss of Sillystone than say the demise of the German or French GPs? And how much "support" did they give Monza over it's own battle to remain on the calendar.

If the teams, for example, can get more money from FOM if they race at, let's say Dubai, than they can do if they go to Northamptonshire, then they will quickly find that it's to their advantage.

It's the 'home' race to nearly all the F1 teams and personally I don't think there is a long queue of people wanting to pay FOM $100M to hold a GP and spend $250M on a circuit. The world is changing fast and government funded vanity projects are long gone - all IMO.

[JeremySmith]

What's happening with Brands Hatch these days .. remember that I have not lived in England for a very long time ..

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

What's happening with Brands Hatch these days .. remember that I have not lived in England for a very long time ..

Someone more qualified than me will fill you in , but from what I can recall the circuit would not be up to modern F1 standards, and there is not enough free space surrounding it to create sufficient run off etc.
I might be wrong though....

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

It's the 'home' race to nearly all the F1 teams and personally I don't think there is a long queue of people wanting to pay FOM $100M to hold a GP and spend $250M on a circuit. The world is changing fast and government funded vanity projects are long gone - all IMO.

You say that but France looks to be re-joining, Argentina are making noises and we know that Dubai and Qatar are also in the hunt.

And what does a "home" race really mean? Up until the last race of last season, Germany had 4 drivers in F1 but they have struggled to get bums on seats and the race looks almost lost for ever. And the British GP is really not value for money for either the circuit or the punters. Having spent 3 days there last July, my sons and I severely regretted the huge cost that we had up stump up for the weekend, and collectively we all decided that for less cost we could have spent 3 days at Fairford Airshow (on the same weekend) including accommodation. And we would have been entertained from 1st thing in the morning until early evening, and been provided with free lunches and teas (damn good they were too in 2015 when we went there).

[Greem]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

What's happening with Brands Hatch these days .. remember that I have not lived in England for a very long time ..

Inner paddock is about 1% the size mandated by Mr E, so would need enlarging. The only way to do that would be to move the back straight and demolish the existing pits. In order to make the runoff areas be FIA grade 1 standard would require huge earthworks, likely including demolishing the MSV building. Costs aside, it would completely change the track layout and it wouldn't be the Brands Hatch we all know and love afterwards.

I don't believe there's any track in the UK that could take F1 without being butchered. Given what happened to Donington (and the fact we're only just back with an open infield this coming year!) it's highly unlikely any circuit would attempt it.

Apart from the Circuit of Wales, obviously

[JeremySmith]

Thank you Greem .. I can't imagine not having a British Grand Prix I doubt Bernie would let that happen ..

[S griffin]

It is worrying news to hear this on the same day Manor have gone into administration. It seems nobody can afford Bernie's ridiculous fees anymore

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

You say that but France looks to be re-joining, Argentina are making noises and we know that Dubai and Qatar are also in the hunt.

And what does a "home" race really mean? Up until the last race of last season, Germany had 4 drivers in F1 but they have struggled to get bums on seats and the race looks almost lost for ever. And the British GP is really not value for money for either the circuit or the punters. Having spent 3 days there last July, my sons and I severely regretted the huge cost that we had up stump up for the weekend, and collectively we all decided that for less cost we could have spent 3 days at Fairford Airshow (on the same weekend) including accommodation. And we would have been entertained from 1st thing in the morning until early evening, and been provided with free lunches and teas (damn good they were too in 2015 when we went there).

I think this is the problem with the bloated F1 weekend at Silverstone. They have a small selection of races, most of which are pretty mediocre (apart from the Porsche Cup which is likely the best race of the weekend) and they expect people to part with £150 a time to go see it. Usually the F1 weekend has about 4 races, F1, GP2 (or whatever its called now), a historic GP of some kind, and the Porcshe Cup. I don't personally consider 4 races good value for money, not when you have the BTCC who give you maybe 10 races for about £25.

[Mike Harte]

Weekend general admittance for 2017 is £165 pp plus £65 to park your car in a muddy field. And last year it was F1, GP2, GP3 and Porsche Cup. They also had the Red Arrows and a Typhoon, but if you were in the wrong viewing area you saw very little of the aerial display because there are now far more restrictions about allowing the aircraft to fly over the public.

Last year, after the GP finished, we went and sat in the refreshment area and watched Murray live on a giant screen winning the men's final at Wimbledon. Far more exciting and entertaining than the rest of the weekend, and the few hundred people doing the same were far more animated than they had been watching the procession that was the GP. The highlight of the weekend for us.

[chunder]

Who is it even humane and juts to charge people 65 quid to park your car!

I find it astonishing, borderline odd that people continue to do so.

No wonder they keep doing nothing to appease fans

[Greem]

Originally Posted by chunder

Who is it even humane and juts to charge people 65 quid to park your car!

I find it astonishing, borderline odd that people continue to do so.

No wonder they keep doing nothing to appease fans

I'm no apologist for F1, but... £17 million + escalator to hold a single weekend event?

Even if that was the *only* cost, if a million people attended that would be £17 each. If 100,000, that's £170 each just to cover the sanctioning fee.

Add in the actual costs of hiring all the extra fencing, generators, staff (a lot of whom attend for nothing, like me, but incur costs like toilets and security and radios and food vouchers and hire of a campsite and other stuff too), the roads policing, the site policing, site security, planning costs, signage, hire of the sites for the car parks, the depreciation of The Wing, amelioration of costs from previous Grand Prix, and any hidden extras...

It's a lot, lot more than we might think. With no government subsidy, could you make ends meet?

[Paradise City]

I've never been to Silverstone. The reason being that's it's very reasonable to go to Monaco and Spa on a basic package and have a very rewarding weekend at venues rich in character. People I know who have gone to Silverstone describe a somewhat forbidding and distant place to watch the action. It's too organised, which means it's completely disorganised whereas Spa and Monaco seem a bit more organic and effective, at least from a spectators POV. Of course Spa has its own severe problems but anyway....

Liberty like most of corporate America speak a very good game but while corporate America does speak a good game, it most certainly is not known for being forgiving in action, handing out welfare nor dispensing anything other than miserly breaks. So quite warm remarks about supporting traditional Europe I don't think will go too far. At least with Eccelstone when he was rude you knew where you stood. We'll probably get more misleading marketing jazz from these Liberty guys though.

I never really doubted there would be a British GP at Silverstone. Even with the Donington stuff being a "sure bet" and the various other crises to hit Silverstone, I suspected Silverstone would still stagger on with the GP.

But now with Brexit as a backdrop and the fact the world didn't explode without the French GP, the confidence I had that the British GP would carry on is now gone.

[S griffin]

Silverstone may have it's faults, but it's one of the few circuits that remind you why you fell in love with the sport, and even with declining interest, the stands are always full, therefore it is worth keeping, so it was be a travesty to lose it

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Silverstone may have it's faults, but it's one of the few circuits that remind you why you fell in love with the sport, and even with declining interest, the stands are always full, therefore it is worth keeping, so it was be a travesty to lose it

Unfortunately, that's not so.

I fell in love with motor racing having watched the cars at Paddock Bend at Brands Hatch and numerous points around Crystal Palace. I have never liked Silverstone, either back then in the 60s, and especially not now in the 2010s. It was, IMHO and remains soulless.

In some respects it would be a travesty if the UK lost it's Grand Prix, but not if Silverstone lost it. But as I have said before on a couple of other threads, Silverstone may have a capacity crowd for the Sunday, but the majority of those people are not motor racing enthusiasts; they are there merely to watch one race that lasts for something over one and a quarter hours. Even the Silverstone Racing Club's and one of the BRDC's stands were empty until just a few minutes before the start of the F1 race; they didn't watch any of the other races.

And the same on the Saturday for the practices and qualifying; empty stands whilst all the other cars were doing their things, and then the spectators came back from the bars and food stalls for the F1. And as soon as that finished, they vanished again. After qualifying, we sat in a number of different stands, and they were, to all intents and purposes, empty. So nobody stayed to watch the GP2 and 3, or the Porsches; they'd gone home.

And to Greem. I am not blaming Silverstone for their charging structure, because I well understand the financial predicament that they have found themselves in. My point was that it is just not good value for what it costs, and what FOM allows the public to see.

[chunder]

Seconded Mike

I am not overly keen on Silverstone either, being bought up at Cadwell and the original Donington before Gillet destroyed it's soul.

But Silverstone is the best and only suitable venue to have the race over here. it has a certain charm if you are of a certain age, but as you say no soul. Flat, faetureless and windy!