[BTCC] BTCC 2019 - Brands Hatch GP - FINALE

[Akrapovic]

Glowing brakes on a Dynamics Honda is pretty standard. They're the only team which give the car new discs and pads for every race. Probably one of the few teams that can afford it. So they run the brakes extremely aggressive at all times.

[crmalcolm]

I don't think it was the glowing brakes specifically - as others have said, that is a regular sight on a Dynamics car. It was also exaggerated by the lighting on the day.

From what I observed, it was the amount of time Dan spent following closely behind that meant the cooling of the brakes when off pedal was not happening as effectively as normal.
This was observable on Ingram (and to a lesser extent Turkington) when they were following closely too.

[Alfisti]

I don't recollect any race being run in so little light this year as R3. The point being that glowing brakes show up far more than, say, the mid afternoon sunshine of a hot summers day. As has been said hot brakes ain't that uncommon. Unless Dynamics tell us what failed (if they have I've missed it!) then we're making educated guesses.

[Sodemo]

The brakes are a standard part, no?

[GT6]

Well at Druids there were several cars in the last race with front discs glowing brightly but the only one that seems to have failed was Cammish, so i suspect it was more than just hot brakes.

[Redshift]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

wonder what JP meant by "being had by the team" regarding to BMR

I was chatting to JP's parents on Saturday and was told a few things about the goings on at BMR.
It will all come out eventually.

[Sodemo]

I am very happy for Turkington. When I realised Cammish was out and that Turks was going to do it I was almost in tears watching this all unfold. What an absolutely amazing end to the championship. I think the weather conspired against the BMW team in the last two events, which is fair enough as it’s a random element, but it brought Cammish back into the championship undoubtedly. I do feel for Cammish, to come so close to the title in only his second BTCC season is a great achievement and I’m sure he will be there or thereabouts in 2020.

One thing I hope Turkington takes from this season is to perhaps be a little more circumspect when dicing with other cars. I think he was tapped around at least 3 times this year, once at Silverstone, Knockhill and Brands Hatch, and whilst I admire Turkington’s clean racing mantra, I think he needs to look at himself a little bit, certainly in the incidents at Knockhill and Brands Hatch, he could have conceded both of those positions and lived for another day, but I think he has this belief that the other drivers will always do the right thing, or always give room, but its not the case. As much as I admire and support Turkington, I think the Neal incident was a 50:50 in terms of blame, yes, I think that Neal was being aggressive and it made no odds to him if he rammed the BMW (as happened) but Turkington always had more to lose in that situation. I did mention in this thread a few days ago, “what would happen if Neal were to torpedo Turkington off the track”. In the end it didn’t matter, although I think more would have been made of that incident if Cammish were to have then gone on to win the title. I think TOCA should really look into “team mate interference” in the future, I am not sure where they could go with it, but we don’t really want another Soper 1992 incident as the Neal incident from yesterday almost became.

Another issue I would have had if Honda had won it this year was the technical changes made to the BMW midway through the season relating to boost and ride height. If they are going to make such changes, they need to be made at the start of the season, not halfway through which then gives teams very little time to react because I imagine it would render setups almost useless, so they would have to work on finding a new balance in the car. The fact that one of the changes was as a result of another team entering another RWD car also seems like a fundamentally flawed system when that team is fighting against cars which aren’t subject to the same performance parity framework. Please stop me if I am wrong on this, but the BMW had two small engine boost reductions, then had a raised ride height imposed (or they could have had extra ballast in the bulkhead?). As I understand it the boost reductions were TOCA imposed performance penalties due to them winning so much and the raised ride height was due to the revised RWD COG calculations or something (I don’t fully understand it to be honest) after the Infinity joined the grid.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Its quite rare to see a touring car suffer brake failure, certainly not in the last 20 or so years. I remember Rydell having a crash in 1994 and Plato in 2000 as a result of brake failure but that’s about it.

Yes you're right. Josh Cook had one at Oulton last year, and Will Burns at Knockhill the year before, but thankfully it doesn't happen too often!

[Spanner monkey]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I am very happy for Turkington. When I realised Cammish was out and that Turks was going to do it I was almost in tears watching this all unfold. What an absolutely amazing end to the championship. I think the weather conspired against the BMW team in the last two events, which is fair enough as it’s a random element, but it brought Cammish back into the championship undoubtedly. I do feel for Cammish, to come so close to the title in only his second BTCC season is a great achievement and I’m sure he will be there or thereabouts in 2020.

One thing I hope Turkington takes from this season is to perhaps be a little more circumspect when dicing with other cars. I think he was tapped around at least 3 times this year, once at Silverstone, Knockhill and Brands Hatch, and whilst I admire Turkington’s clean racing mantra, I think he needs to look at himself a little bit, certainly in the incidents at Knockhill and Brands Hatch, he could have conceded both of those positions and lived for another day, but I think he has this belief that the other drivers will always do the right thing, or always give room, but its not the case. As much as I admire and support Turkington, I think the Neal incident was a 50:50 in terms of blame, yes, I think that Neal was being aggressive and it made no odds to him if he rammed the BMW (as happened) but Turkington always had more to lose in that situation. I did mention in this thread a few days ago, “what would happen if Neal were to torpedo Turkington off the track”. In the end it didn’t matter, although I think more would have been made of that incident if Cammish were to have then gone on to win the title. I think TOCA should really look into “team mate interference” in the future, I am not sure where they could go with it, but we don’t really want another Soper 1992 incident as the Neal incident from yesterday almost became.

Another issue I would have had if Honda had won it this year was the technical changes made to the BMW midway through the season relating to boost and ride height. If they are going to make such changes, they need to be made at the start of the season, not halfway through which then gives teams very little time to react because I imagine it would render setups almost useless, so they would have to work on finding a new balance in the car. The fact that one of the changes was as a result of another team entering another RWD car also seems like a fundamentally flawed system when that team is fighting against cars which aren’t subject to the same performance parity framework. Please stop me if I am wrong on this, but the BMW had two small engine boost reductions, then had a raised ride height imposed (or they could have had extra ballast in the bulkhead?). As I understand it the boost reductions were TOCA imposed performance penalties due to them winning so much and the raised ride height was due to the revised RWD COG calculations or something (I don’t fully understand it to be honest) after the Infinity joined the grid.

The C.O.G adjustments only came in to effect once the Infinity was entered with a TOCA engine.This is done to balance out the rwd cars.

[Robin Marriott]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The brakes are a standard part, no?

Discs, bells and calipers are but I’m not sure about pads, I think they might be free.

[Johno.UK]

I expect Dan being a left foot braker doesn't help the brake temps any. Surprises me how few of them actually do left foot brake, especially the younger ones.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Spanner monkey

The C.O.G adjustments only came in to effect once the Infinity was entered with a TOCA engine.This is done to balance out the rwd cars.

Well that's what I thought (and more or less wrote above), but that's a totally illogical method the fact that a competitor can enter a car mid way through the season and then have it affect how your car is configured and "balanced".

[Robin Marriott]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

I expect Dan being a left foot braker doesn't help the brake temps any. Surprises me how few of them actually do left foot brake, especially the younger ones.

This was mentioned on the coverage but I can’t see how that would really make a difference, unless it means he’s braking significantly later, in which case everyone would be doing it.

I’d say it’s more a combination of brake bias setup and no cooling following a car so closely.

[Spanner monkey]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Well that's what I thought (and more or less wrote above), but that's a totally illogical method the fact that a competitor can enter a car mid way through the season and then have it affect how your car is configured and "balanced".

The rules are subject to verification from the TWG (Teams working group) so all teams know the rules that they are working to.
Maybe this will will be reviewed for next year that allowing a car to come in half way through and changing the way rules work for cars already homologated.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The brakes are a standard part, no?

They are - but how you set them up and use them can vary differently between cars and drivers.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Well that's what I thought (and more or less wrote above), but that's a totally illogical method the fact that a competitor can enter a car mid way through the season and then have it affect how your car is configured and "balanced".

It seems that way - but remember the benchmark against which all NGTC cars are assessed is a TOCA-engined FWD Hatchback.

When any car differs from the norm, a measure is calculated against the reference car. For the Civics, their engine is initially 'balanced' against the TOCA standard. The justification for this is that the TOCA engine must always be competitive, or the NGTC rule-set falls apart. If another engine builder does something that Swindon are unable to match with the standard unit, then the unit becomes irrelevant and a budget competition ensues.

When there were no cars running RWD with the TOCA engine, then all they had to reference against was a FWD car. The CoG calculations were made against this to try and even out RWD/FWD, and to compensate for the Boxer configuration.

Once the Infiniti appeared with a TOCA unit, this model was then taken as the 'standard' for RWD NGTC cars, against which the other models were adjusted.

[redshoes]

Perhaps Dynamics adjusted the bias after Turkington pointed out that the sister car seemed to have a braking problem in race 2.

/s

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Robin Marriott

This was mentioned on the coverage but I can’t see how that would really make a difference, unless it means he’s braking significantly later, in which case everyone would be doing it.

I think the reference to left-foot braking was making an assumption that when on the throttle, Cammish might still be applying a very light pressure to the brake pedal, which was preventing the cooling air to pass between pad/disc.
At the end of the straights, I didn't see Cammish pre-braking like some others?

[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by Robin Marriott

This was mentioned on the coverage but I can’t see how that would really make a difference, unless it means he’s braking significantly later, in which case everyone would be doing it.

I’d say it’s more a combination of brake bias setup and no cooling following a car so closely.

Typically a left foot braker will have more overlap with the throttle and brake, especially with a FWD car where keeping a bit of brake on through the corner can keep the weight on the nose.

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Perhaps Dynamics adjusted the bias after Turkington pointed out that the sister car seemed to have a braking problem in race 2.

/s

I see what you did there.....

[steve_r]

After race 2, the final result was quite pleasing to see. Although Cammish should not be held accountable for his teammates actions, he would of been seen as the champion mainly because of that one incident, rather than his excellent and consistent season.

On the other hand, I doubt many people will look at this title and say that Turkington won it solely down to the brake failure on Cammish's car - although of course that was the defining moment.

Good drama as always. Ont he whole, I think it has been an excellent season. Roll on next year.

[Langers]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Glowing brakes on a Dynamics Honda is pretty standard. They're the only team which give the car new discs and pads for every race. Probably one of the few teams that can afford it. So they run the brakes extremely aggressive at all times.

Generates a great aftermarket supply chain for people to run them on E46 M3s

[S griffin]

Wow! You don't get a much better end to the season than that. What a drive by Colin. He had nothing to lose and did it with style. So glad to see him match Andy Rouse's record of 4 titles, it deserves to go to someone of his talent. And he keeps up his 100% record of winning every championship that he comes into the final meeting in the lead of.

Shame for Cammish, wouldn't want to wish that on anyone, but it's only his second season, so he's become more consistent this season and should have another chance in the future. As for the Neal incident, Matt was always going to be more aggressive with Colin, I've seen worse moves than that to be honest

Good to see all three Motorbase cars up there, Caine really has a car that matches his talent. OJ really did a good job in all three races to be up there

Glad Sutton managed to win one and give Scooby a last win by the looks of it. Plato looked very happy with his win too. Shame Jelley dropped back in R3, but at least he scored good points in all three races after so much bad luck in the second half of the season

Great end to a great season, seemed to just flow by. Hope next season is as good

[Langers]

I think BTCC is much better to watch at home than at the track. The cars themselves really are quite slow, quiet and don't move around too much - at least not compared to V8 Supercars. I tried every vantage point at Brands yesterday and couldn't find anyone sliding around - other than Blundell into the gravel at Druids...

The support races were just amateur (both literally and figuratively)... safety car every second lap, and even more boring and slow than BTCC. Carrera Cup might as well have been electric for all the noise they made!

Probably spoiled by going to the Spa 6 hour a few weeks ago. Motorracing isn't what it used to be, sadly.

[justracing]

I've been going to Brands for over 50 years and that was one of the best ending scenarios I've seen, on a par with Mansell's victory in '86 and Toselands's WSBK double in '07.
Neal's move in R2 was disgraceful, interesting how the guy has gone from hero, with his privateer's Nissan win way back to pocket £250k, to zero with such deplorable tactics as exemplified by punting Turks off in R2. I was 50 yards away from watching at Graham Hill and there was no way that Neal was ever going to pull of an overtake without contact, just a blatant tipping off manoeuvre. I was still talking about Turks win when I finally got back home last night, absolutely chuffed for the guy, what goes around......
As for the BTCC cars being slow, perversely I often think watching the Aussie V8 races how pedestrian the cars appear but I can't claim to have ever seen them in the flesh - need to catch up with Bathurst 1000 now