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Old 11 Apr 2018, 04:22 (Ref:3814790)   #51
Casper
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Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Jam3s View Post
Wouldn't be surprised if they look into a category wide generic hybrid engine solution. You can buy off the shelf hybrid systems from the likes of Zytek which can be easily mated to an existing engine. Still, I don't see the benefit really as it will cause backlash from the public and still won't entice manufacturers to join.
All that will achieve is added costs and complication unfortunately no matter how you look at it. I think it is an either or situation, they either decide to stay IC or go to electric and that latter has as much chance of happening in the foreseeable future as I have of winning the lottery. I reckon that in fifty years time people are going to look back at hybrids as a strange why did they bother type of view. Range extenders are a different class of animal altogether.
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Old 11 Apr 2018, 05:01 (Ref:3814791)   #52
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All that will achieve is added costs and complication unfortunately no matter how you look at it. I think it is an either or situation, they either decide to stay IC or go to electric and that latter has as much chance of happening in the foreseeable future as I have of winning the lottery. I reckon that in fifty years time people are going to look back at hybrids as a strange why did they bother type of view. Range extenders are a different class of animal altogether.
I am no expert but I would imagine an all electric Bathurst 1000 may take some time to finish the 161 laps. Which leaves you with what? Either all internal combustion or hybrid. Control spec hybrid and branded I/C may be an option. Would it have to be done in the absence of any manufacturer involvement?
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Old 11 Apr 2018, 05:31 (Ref:3814794)   #53
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I am no expert but I would imagine an all electric Bathurst 1000 may take some time to finish the 161 laps. Which leaves you with what? Either all internal combustion or hybrid. Control spec hybrid and branded I/C may be an option. Would it have to be done in the absence of any manufacturer involvement?
I wouldn't lose sleep over where the category goes as I think it is years away from making a decision, in fact I would go as far as saying they have not got a clue. As I mentioned before they might not even change and instead do a NASCAR and become something reminiscent of what used to be. They really can't be blamed for not making a decision as we are going through a period of monumental change much like when the IC engine and cars first began to be used and all motor sport is going to have to make changes. Interesting times coming along for the next ten years and I hope I am still around to see it.

If Holden drop out all bets are off and I reckon that is a big chance of happening as I can't see an upside to them even continuing in this country at all. We should start a sweep on what date they will drop support. I suppose that is the biggest hurdle SC has to face and plan for in the nearish future and hope to hell it does not happen.
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Old 11 Apr 2018, 07:22 (Ref:3814805)   #54
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Still, I don't see the benefit really as it will cause backlash from the public and still won't entice manufacturers to join.
It's ok to take backlash if you are proven right afterwards. I didn't like the NSX hybrid at first... Like many people I thought, wouldn't it better if it didn't have 250kg (made up number, I can't seem to find the number) of hybridisation in it.

Here is a crazy Frenchman giving it some stick, even if it is no longer Ferrari fast (Honda foolishly used an outdated benchmark in the 458), it is not *that* slow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkI24z1t7Eg

It seems to handle well with the dual-electric front motors' torque vectoring, and does it job admirably. So I have come round to appreciate it.

It would still be an unsellable overpriced underappreciated Honda collecting dust on dealer lots even if wasn't a hybrid, right?

To get headlines Honda perhaps should have boosted it to the moon and given it 800hp to put a cat amongst the pigeons, but to win wars of spec sheets isn't a very Honda way to go about things... So a mediocre class average 575hp it is, what a overweight overpriced underpowered hybrid pile of bolts indeed.

So in time maybe people will come 'round to appreciate the elegance of hybrid performance cars and hybrid racing cars -- even if they seem like ridiculous pointless greenwashing in the present day...

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 11 Apr 2018 at 07:27.
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Old 11 Apr 2018, 07:26 (Ref:3814806)   #55
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peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
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I guess I was right, this is a stop gap decision so the category can take a breath and make some decisions. Super Cars has sort of run itself into a cul de sac not of its own making but a dead end none the less. The domestic manufacturing industry no longer exists, the manic insistence on parity and the world wide change to electric power including every European manufacturer joining Formula E which tells you exactly how they are thinking and where they are going. Maybe the only way forward is a bespoke engine, if they want engine parity there really is no other choice but the economics don't add up because of the economic size of the category, there simply is not enough money involved TBH.

On the other hand an all electric future might be cheaper if approached the right way. The entire drive train would get the sand shoe out the door, two electric motors at the wheels and a battery pack would be a more simple and a less maintenance intensive scenario, no gearboxes, diffs, engines etc to keep pouring money into as electric motors don't need all the crap that goes with a conventional driveline and shells would be much easier to construct as a standard battery pack would be used. The category management would supply all battery packs for the race meeting along with charging facilities etc. The big drawback to all electric is us, the fans like noise and electric cars don't make much of that.

I will bet money that an all electric car would be cheaper to race than a conventional IC car once all the infrastructure is in place. Whether it would be successful as a spectator category is doubtful at the moment but the time will come when racing is either a fall back reminiscent type of past time with old fashioned IC motors or motor sport gets with the program and goes full electric because all manufacturers are now moving forward with electric cars with the US as the stand out exception. It is not going to be a case of what you want to drive but what the manufacturers offer form the mid twenties onward, that much is clear.
good Read thanks

Lots of good thoughts
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Old 11 Apr 2018, 09:12 (Ref:3814825)   #56
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
I guess I was right, this is a stop gap decision so the category can take a breath and make some decisions. Super Cars has sort of run itself into a cul de sac not of its own making but a dead end none the less. The domestic manufacturing industry no longer exists, the manic insistence on parity and the world wide change to electric power including every European manufacturer joining Formula E which tells you exactly how they are thinking and where they are going. Maybe the only way forward is a bespoke engine, if they want engine parity there really is no other choice but the economics don't add up because of the economic size of the category, there simply is not enough money involved TBH.

On the other hand an all electric future might be cheaper if approached the right way. The entire drive train would get the sand shoe out the door, two electric motors at the wheels and a battery pack would be a more simple and a less maintenance intensive scenario, no gearboxes, diffs, engines etc to keep pouring money into as electric motors don't need all the crap that goes with a conventional driveline and shells would be much easier to construct as a standard battery pack would be used. The category management would supply all battery packs for the race meeting along with charging facilities etc. The big drawback to all electric is us, the fans like noise and electric cars don't make much of that.

I will bet money that an all electric car would be cheaper to race than a conventional IC car once all the infrastructure is in place. Whether it would be successful as a spectator category is doubtful at the moment but the time will come when racing is either a fall back reminiscent type of past time with old fashioned IC motors or motor sport gets with the program and goes full electric because all manufacturers are now moving forward with electric cars with the US as the stand out exception. It is not going to be a case of what you want to drive but what the manufacturers offer form the mid twenties onward, that much is clear.
That is the inevitable future without a doubt, it's a case of when the tech and public is willing and able. With other categories making the jump slowly but surely it may give supercars the benefit of having motorsport viewers becoming accustomed to "the future" which would help the local transition. Not sure how endurance racing would cope but we'll see how the tech develops.
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Old 13 Apr 2018, 06:10 (Ref:3815138)   #57
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They were only ever going to see it through, if all Holden teams embraced it.

Otherwise it wouldn't be worth their time.
Scuttlebutt suggests that teams weren't interested in leasing engines from a sole supplier (ie monopoly) in 888 after the furore of parts cost for the ZB.

Erebus amongst others publicly saying so in a more diplomatic manner was probably just the 1st comment made on something that behind closed doors was already agreed on to be shelved.
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Old 14 Apr 2018, 07:14 (Ref:3815367)   #58
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Holden At Risk Of Survival
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Old 14 Apr 2018, 08:15 (Ref:3815376)   #59
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That article makes for sobering reading. Hard to see Holden surviving really.
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Old 14 Apr 2018, 08:46 (Ref:3815384)   #60
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It certainly looks like the writing is on the wall. Very troubling news and prognosis.
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Old 14 Apr 2018, 09:05 (Ref:3815385)   #61
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They're shot. Interesting to see their marketing direction in the short term and how that effects Supercars in what seems like a last ditch attempt to save the brand.
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Old 14 Apr 2018, 09:55 (Ref:3815394)   #62
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Holden are shot, focused too heavily on the Aussie built Commodore and didn't plan well for post 2017. Or Detroit had zero interest in OZ post 2017.

They have nothing to bring buyers through their doors. Colorado looks to be the best seller, but is out sold almost 3 to 1 by Hilux and Ranger, then twice by Triton.

Unless something amazing happens this year, brand survival beyond 2020 will be tough.

Domination with the ZB in Supercars will keep the rusted on passionate about the brand, but probably have no affect on sales.

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Old 14 Apr 2018, 10:24 (Ref:3815396)   #63
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Totally agree, the rusted on faithful don't seem to be so passionate about the car sitting in the showroom.
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