Ralt RT 2

[Jeremy Jackson]

Derek, dan,

It was Schafer in 1981, entered as dvf Schafer Racing.

F1R has 4 Toleman RT2 s in 1979 as 151-154... 151 listed only at Pau & Hockenheim in May/June. Later races have Henton in 154, Dougall in 153. As I mentioned before, you perhaps need to be wary of trusting these too much/at all!!

[dereklola]

Ian
Facinating stuff. As Caesar, or was it Hannibal, once said "Ex Africa semper aliquid nova est". I'm not really a historian but having got involved it's great to learn things like that.

If that car is RT2-152 it would indicate that it was the early prototype which then became the spare car for Toleman in 1979. #152 would still be a 1979 number. To my knowledge all Ralt chassis plates of that time were the same design, like my pics, but then it's quite possible that a "replacement" plate was made to get through customs or something. This doesn't necessarily invalidate your info.

Thx a lot - Derek

[dereklola]

Jeremy

Actually those numbers, together with Ian's info from ZA about that car being #152 start to make sense.

Per the Tauranac book 144 cars were built through 1978 so (being overly logical) 1979 production would start at 145 (RT1s and RT2s). So those numbers you quote RT2-151 through 154 look good.

Regret to say that I started the 167 number story based on a 1999 ad selling the car after its CanAm involvement and many years of storage. Never trust ads!

The other bit of good news is that I just unearthed a 1994 letter I have from Stuart Baron (then at March after they bought Ralt) about certain 1980 cars. "Your car is not one of the F2 cars. From the chassis registry these were chassis numbers 172 and 181. Your car RT4-180 was supplied as an Atlantic car......"

I talked to Stuart a couple of years ago (he now makes exhaust systems for F1 cars etc on very complicated computer controlled bending machines) and he advised that all these history records were dumped when March closed down. Argh.

So that seems to confirm those two numbers - 172 and 181.

Now back to the 1979 Toleman cars. Interesting that F1R (what is that?) quotes them as having four cars because the Tauranac book quotes there being four built in 1979. (Of course it also quotes there being only one in 1980 - so we have to be careful).

So were there 6 cars (not 5) built in 1979/80 - plus the later uncorroborated one with #278 chassis number?

The CanAm history seems easy by comparison because each team only had one car! But we can't sort out the early F2 bit. Is it possible that cars were rebuilt and given new chassis numbers?

Derek

[Jeremy Jackson]

Soory Derek, F1R is the Formula 1 Register, whcih publish a book of results of "Grand prix & Voiturette Racing" covering (so far) 1900-84. Included GP, other F1, F2 & F3000. Entry lists, chassis, and results.

Do you want a list of the races that it gives for each chassis?

[dereklola]

Jeremy if you could do that without too much effort I'd appreciate it. As I said above I'm not really a historian but having started the exercise it would be nice to try to finish it - and to make my website as good as I can.

Do the results for 1980/81 also include chassis numbers? Just for Ralts - I'm not getting into Tolemans and T850s.

And I've got to get back to renovating my cars!

Thx - Derek

[Jeremy Jackson]

Derek,

Here they are for 1979, but obviously they can't be seen as definitive. Also there is at least one race where the spare car was used, and this doesn't get a mention in the books. So just a health warning!

1979:
Silverstone: Henton 152
Hockenheim: Henton 152
Thruxton: Henton 152
(Nurburgring, Vallelunga & Misano reverted to March 782)
Pau: Henton & Dougall both listed with 152. Suggest Dougall in 151
Hockenheim: Henton 152; Dougall 151
Zandvoort: Henton 154; Dougall 153
Enna: Henton 154; Dougall 153
Misano: Henton 154; Dougall 153 (Dougall also used T-car, according to Autosport. Not mentioned in F1R)
Donington: Henton 154; Dougall 153

Cheers

Jeremy

[allenbrown]

I have Autosport 29 Mar 1979 at my elbow and p12 has a full entry list with (nearly all) chassis numbers. The solo Ralt RT2 is given as RT2-01. Sorry!

[dereklola]

Ralt didn't use chassis numbers like 01 in 1979 so we need to discount that Autosport reference - although obviously it was the first race for an RT2. I presume you are refering to the March 25 Silverstone race.

Jeremy - thx for all that 1979 info - I'll browse through it tonight. You've already checked that the Cassani car in 1980 was 181 and that almost certainly was the Schafer car in 1981 (right?) so that means that all four 1979 Toleman cars went somewhere else - we can account for three - 152 to ZA - one straight to US (Lovely) - one via Team Vesuvio F2 to US (Gove) later on. That leaves one to account for. Any ideas?

I did see one reference on the F2 Register website to an "RT2 Honda" in Japan. I initially assumed it was an error - but I wonder .............. I'll try to find it again. Might also make that reference to Nigel Mansell in an RT2 Honda believable - I've always discountd it as an error. Might be the "4th" Toleman car reworked. I've always accepted that all Ralt Hondas were RH6.

Derek (I haven't forgotten all your caveats)

[allenbrown]

For the record, Autosport's Thruxton report doesn't mention any chassis numbers.

Given that 1994 letter, I think the F1R data has to be taken with a massive pinch of salt. A gap between 172 and 181 would make sense given the time between Henton's and Dougall's cars being completed. There's nothing in Autosport's Zandvoort report to support F1R's contention that both cars were new (153 and 154), merely an extensive list of revisions.

One interesting item is in the Enna report where mention is made of the team's T-car: "the original prototype". So is that Henton's early season car or is it a previously-unraced prototype. How much testing did Henton do before Silverstone, anyone know?

Allen

[allenbrown]

If Ralt say 172 was a F2 car, it is still possible they overlooked a prototype RT2 lurking earlier in the register at 152. As we now have a "live" RT2-152, I guess 152 must be the T-car at Enna but the question remains was it raced previously? Could it have been the unsuccessful early-season car?

[dereklola]

Whoa - slow down Allen. 172 and 181 were the 1980 cars. That letter was in response to a question about my RT4-180 Atlantic (by previous owner, not me). Ralt record them both as F2 cars but I know mine (172) was converted to CanAm before shipment to the US - and was not raced as an F2. This from Bill Blackledge junior who was a teenage crew member to his father the original owner/driver. Father now deceased.

Those two numbers are compatible for 1981 with Ralt's sequential numbering.

Nothing there to suggest 151-154 are not valid for the 1979 cars - based on all these inputs I'm tending to believe they are good.

Derek

[Jeremy Jackson]

Prior to Silverstone, Henton's RT2 had "merely a day of testing (at Goodwood in the wet) behind it". From Autosport's report.

[allenbrown]

That proves it - I just can't 'do' F2. I shall retreat back to the 5-litre stuff and lick my wounds.

Allen

Allen, your right. Forget the the small bore stuff. Ralt had no real system for numbering cars. Derek's RT4 is #180, and mine is #185. I understand #183 was an RT5 super-vee. Makes no sense to me. Love your site, keep up the good work.

[dereklola]

Hey Allen and FA-Reject - don't leave us now!

I happen to think Ralt's number system very logical - started with RT1-001 and continued through RT2-3-4-5. Each car got a sequential number regardless of model. What's strange about that?

Derek

[allenbrown]

... and then they throw away all their records.

[Dan Rear]

Chaps

My review of Autocourse's says that the Cassani car in 80 was entered as an RT4, but are we right to assume that actually it was built as an F2 car, so all logic suggests that it is an RT2. Also that year, Flammini is in the 1979 ex Toleman RT2, for a few races.

In 81, Winklehock is in the ex-Cassani now Schafer 'RT2' BMW, a similar car (I presume the same one) appears also for Pedersoli and Regout later that year, after Winklehock gets a Maurer seat. Also that year, 81, Piero Nappi appears in a RT2 Hart, I assume the ex-Flammini, Vesuvio car.

In 82, the Wyatt car, if we believe Autocourse and I do (!)completes 8 laps at Silverstone. Autocourse describe it as a RH6/81 Hart, so perhaps this is an ex-works Honda car re-engined. Apparently it never appears again, for Wyatt or anyone else. Only other F2 car that year, works ones excepted, is Bruno Eichmann in a BMW car, presumably the ex-Cassani/Schafer chassis.

[Jeremy Jackson]

Dan,

I knew Stanley started at Silverstone '82, I was at the race. 1981 was the race you were questioning if he started or not - I still think he was a DNA. As previously mentioned, the car was quoted as chassis 278, but didn't appear again, so we are in the dark for the moment.

The Cassani/Schafer chassis is as discussed earlier.

Flammini is quoted in F1R as "possibly" the orginal RT2, chassis 151.

[IANHEB]

Derek,
Regarding your comments on the chassis plate,the one for 152 is what i would describe as being similar to the early Brabham type i.e.black plastic background with etched letters/numbers which then show through as white.Across the top it states the chassis number and then underneath 'Ralt Cars Ltd,Weybridge,Surrey,England'.It is glued on,no screws or rivets.
Regards
Ian

[dereklola]

Hey Dan - it's good that we Lancastrians are sticking together!

Thx for the extra info which helps confirm what we were concluding up till now.

Summary

151 = presumably first car built (or at least started) by Ralt Cars but only raced twice both times by Dougal in June. What happened to this car? Did it become Honda prototype? Did it get rebuilt and re-numbered? Or did it just disappear?

152 - used for one day testing before first race then raced 5 times by Henton from March to June. Retained as T-car after that. Sold without engine to ZA at end of season. Mazda engine installed. Dismantled to form basis of local Lants.

153 - new car for Dougal, raced last 4 events starting July.

154 - new car for Henton, raced last 4 events starting July.

153 and 154 - these were probably sold as complete running cars. One, don't know which, went to Team Vesuvio, raced F2 1980/81 then to Genoa Racing for CanAm 1983/84, currently for sale in California. Other was sold to Lovely for 1980 CanAm (won 2L title), to Jim Trueman for 1981 CanAm (won 2L title again), to Ausca International for 1983/84 CanAm, currently for sale (as Atlantic) in Indiana.

All above were built in first half 1979 and, judging by sequential numbers, presumably at least the tubs were all built very early in 1979.

172 - built early 1980 (or very late 1979) sold to Blackledge for CanAm. Never raced F2. Currently being restored for historic CanAm.

181 - built with, or for, BMW engine in early 1980 for Cassani (Dougal), to Schafer (Winkelhock etc) for 1981 and one race in 1982, then various drivers (Hardt, Binder etc) in Interserie from 1984-1991. Currently for sale in Germany.

278 - chassis number suggests 1981 build which is mysterious. No early history known at this time (*). Imported from UK to US in 1996/97 and now active in US historic F2 racing. Could this have originated as 151?

Thx - guys.

That leaves two questions -
1 - what happened to 151?
2 - which of 153/154 went to Cassani and which to Vesuvio?

Any clues?

(*) - see next post

Derek

[dereklola]

Hey Jeremy - Bingo - did you say the Watts car was numbered 278? That supports the car currently being historic raced here - see previous post. Where was this number reported? And was it RT2-278 or RH6 or RT4?

Also where did car come from? Was it really built in 1981 as the number would suggest? Seems strange to me. Was it a rebuild - did Ralt do that sort of thing? And if they did would they use a new number?

Derek

[dereklola]

Ian

Thx for that info.

Do you have access to these cars (and bits and pieces)?

If you do could you take some pics and either mail them to me or email them directly?

Do you know Bernard Tilanus? It was through him that I first heard about the ZA RT2 - he drove it. I met him couple of years ago in Detroit.

Do you live in Joberg area? I lived in Pretoria for several years - wonderful climate (says he getting the snow blower tuned and ready!)

Derek

[Jeremy Jackson]

Derek,

Annoying what you wish you'd looked at more closely 20 years ago...

I didn't get too close to Stanley's car in 1982. It was entered as an "RH6/81", which may not help much, but may at least confirm its build date(year). Fitted with a Hart engine

Does Flammini having 151 fit in with what you know?

[dereklola]

Jeremy - thx.

I have no info on whether the Vesuvio/Flammini car might have been 151. All I know (think I know?) is that Vesuvio/Flammini race an RT2 in F2 and that the Italians (Sicilians?) running Genoa Racing here used an RT2 (same RT2 presumably) for their CanAm car. You don't ask too many questions about what Sicilians did 20 years ago!? I talked to the current "owner" of Genoa Racing in San Francisco about a year ago.

Derek

[Jeremy Jackson]

Derek, scratch the 151 idea for Flammini - Autosport's report for Enna 1980 says Flammini's car was the ex-Toleman car that had been on pole in 1979 (Henton). If (big if...)we assume the stuff I listed is correct, that would be 154.