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Old 10 Jan 2013, 14:10 (Ref:3187303)   #1
FastDB2s
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FastDB2s should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Latest FIA scam to get your money

We deal direct with TRS (Total Restraint) Motorsport, they have sent us a newsletter today which mentions the latest scam, which is the introduction of Unique Hologram labels sewn into the left shoulder strap of every FIA harness, these are 'included in TRS harness prices unlike some other harness manufacturers' or so the newsletter states but the FIA charge them for every hologram so their prices have to go up.

Another scam to bleed the money out of us all

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Old 10 Jan 2013, 16:11 (Ref:3187326)   #2
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Al Weyman - please do not read this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Racing overalls are being hologrammed as well. It's the latest anti-forgery device. I've already raised the point about FIA labels on counterfeit gloves, I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say that the same isn't happening with Far Eastern racing overalls - or even Close Western overalls for that matter, there are certain manufacturers whose activities cause me to raise an eyebrow.

The idea is that every suit is track-able, and if one is seen to be sub-standard then it can tracked back to manufacturer. Presumably the same thing is happening to seat belts. I for one want to know that quality control is to rigorous standards, it's my body being held in place by them!

There is no compulsion to wear only suits with holograms, and there is no date for expiry of suits without them. I've known about it for some time but didn't know about the belts, expect holograms to appear on seats as well then. It's a quite onerous task getting the labels, so hopefully it will keep standards up.

As for getting "your" money, most clothing manufacturers are swallowing the cost.

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Old 10 Jan 2013, 21:07 (Ref:3187419)   #3
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Al Weyman - please do not read this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Racing overalls are being hologrammed as well. It's the latest anti-forgery device. I've already raised the point about FIA labels on counterfeit gloves, I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say that the same isn't happening with Far Eastern racing overalls - or even Close Western overalls for that matter, there are certain manufacturers whose activities cause me to raise an eyebrow.

The idea is that every suit is track-able, and if one is seen to be sub-standard then it can tracked back to manufacturer. Presumably the same thing is happening to seat belts. I for one want to know that quality control is to rigorous standards, it's my body being held in place by them!

There is no compulsion to wear only suits with holograms, and there is no date for expiry of suits without them. I've known about it for some time but didn't know about the belts, expect holograms to appear on seats as well then. It's a quite onerous task getting the labels, so hopefully it will keep standards up.

As for getting "your" money, most clothing manufacturers are swallowing the cost.
The new seat I bought during summer has hologram, rather than the date label that had to be marked during manufacture. The way you put it Max, can't see it being a big issue.

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Old 10 Jan 2013, 21:26 (Ref:3187426)   #4
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If someone is going to go to the effort of making a batch of fake seats, then surely getting some fake holograms made is just a small extra step.

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Old 10 Jan 2013, 21:37 (Ref:3187433)   #5
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Geraint, that's just not right! To make a seat is cheap, and the fake seats will be even cheaper. To fake the hologram is expensive. that's the reasoning behind it.
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Old 10 Jan 2013, 21:42 (Ref:3187438)   #6
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Same as holograms on bank notes. If you can fake these kind of things you don't mess around with seats!

This reminds me, I need some new belts...
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Old 10 Jan 2013, 22:01 (Ref:3187447)   #7
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If someone is going to go to the effort of making a batch of fake seats, then surely getting some fake holograms made is just a small extra step.

Geraint
Also- The old 'date' label was apparently simple enough to copy via modern digital imagery- not that any one would dream of 'updating' their seat that way....

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Old 11 Jan 2013, 07:40 (Ref:3187579)   #8
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Jesus, this all sounds staggering, even less reason to get involved with silly costly barriers like this being put in place.

I am sure there is a good reason for it, but for goodness sake, this just makes the FIA loke even ore like FIFA, run but out of touch creetens who simply dont live outside their Swiss fake plastic world.

There will always be people prepared to cut corners, I say if you want tp police this better, have better scrutineering, as that is where you will catch this sort of thing at the point where it becomes a safety concern, but of course that woul not make someone as much money...
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 08:16 (Ref:3187589)   #9
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They have to pay for their fancy offices overlooking Place de la Concorde somehow.
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 08:35 (Ref:3187598)   #10
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And no doubt cover their vast expense bills and second homes. I wonder if duck pond houses have holograms?
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 08:40 (Ref:3187600)   #11
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Really guys, what's your problem? It's nothing to do with you, it doesn't concern you what labelling is on there. Price rise? There may be price rises for gear in the pipeline, it sounds to me like the new FIA labelling is a handy place to hide behind...And spread over the lifetime of the product it won't be a lot per year.

I despair sometimes! You know those cheap "Lucas" rotor arms that A-Series drivers moan about? Everyone hunts around and pays a fortune for original items that don't break down. And there's always cries on here of "don't buy the cheap foreign copy of xxx performance part, make sure you get the original UK one, it's better."

Why do you think cheap Far Eastern "safety" equipment is made any better? Prices are driven down to bucket levels, and there are moans of "scamming" when someone tries to take control of the situation. Honestly, that's a fortune paid in making the car go one tenth quicker, but if someone suggests spending an extra tiny bit of that money in making drivers safer there's howls of disapproval.

Oh of course, it won't happen to you so you don't need proper certified protection. We never had it in the thirties after all, and look how many racing driers survived unhurt!
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 08:42 (Ref:3187602)   #12
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You're missing the crucial duck pond point
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 08:49 (Ref:3187605)   #13
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And while I'm at it.....

>>>>>>>There will always be people prepared to cut corners, I say if you want tp police this better, have better scrutineering,

And how much will that add to your entry fee EVERY meeting? More scrutineers cost money, more time taken on cars costs money. It's a very expensive way of saving a few quid!

Not forgetting that I can't tell the difference at a glance between a Polycotton racing overall with an embroidered label and a Nomex one. And I've been in the trade 30 years and have actually manufactured them!
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 08:52 (Ref:3187607)   #14
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Adam, there is no crucial duck pond point except in your mind. Oh duck it, I don't know why I bother!

Yes, everyone's out to screw you, go back to wearing leather flying helmets and no belts. We will kill several drivers a year, maim others and get the sport banned but never mind, it was cheaper while it lasted....

Rant over. I'll go and catch up on my sleep and will be my usual sunny self again when I come back on Tenths

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Old 11 Jan 2013, 10:12 (Ref:3187638)   #15
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I think if I am spending that much money on gear then I would prfer my gear to be loked voer by someone very qualified to assess it.

If you are a racing driver you either have to take responsibility for your own equipment or trust sosone else to know what they are talking about.

Money does not always buy you the best, or more importantly the best for you. Eiethr in helmets, suits or safety equipment.

I remember many years ago I used a seat that I thought was good, tuyrned to be one of the cheapest, shoddiest pieces of crud I ahve ever seen in an accident.

I could have paid half the price and got something similar second hand but decided to go new, didnt make a blind bit of difference to quality.

Scrutes I would rather have, at a much lower level than FIA etc I have been refused the chance t race before and I moaned and *****ed, until I sat down and realised what would have happened if I had either beein in a crash or caused one.

Ok, it might mean a slightly steeper fee, but lets be honest if you are racing FIA, you are not likely to be running on the tightest of budgets, what price safety.
But this initiative does seem rather odd.
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 11:23 (Ref:3187673)   #16
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In what way is it odd? Thanks to the hologram you know that your informed choice is the correct choice.

Cloth badges are easy to forge, I have evidence of that in respect to gloves as described in another thread and Impact Racewear (Bill Simpson) got in a lot of trouble when a sub-contractor forged SFI badges. I have read the story of an Australian racewear manufacturer selling non-legit overalls with FIA logos on, large numbers of the Aussie Touring Car grid were thrown out in Dubai for that.

Ergo, to stop you buying the sub-standard gear a hologram method has been developed. To allow you to make the informed choice - and re-assure you that expensive (or cheap) seat really *is* to the FIA standard!

Anyway, it's not yet compulsory you have a suit with the hologram, nor the belts, nor a seat so what's the big problem? It doesn't have to be retro-fitted, you don't have to dig into your pockets. Just the next one you buy will be labelled with a hologram. It's a non-issue really.

i agree with you that most expensive isn't necessarily best, but at least you'll know that if it's got a hologram the approval logo wasn't knocked up on Photoshop and a John Bull Printing Set! From now on, if it ain't got a hologram, it ain't genuine FIA!
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 11:31 (Ref:3187678)   #17
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It's a non-issue really.
It's just human nature; some people are only happy when they are moaning about something, especially if it's anything that they can't have any effect on.
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 12:35 (Ref:3187704)   #18
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Slight tangent to thread, but could someone tell me how current safety equipment regs differ from when I mackled together my mini 35 years ago (was it really that long ago ) for club racing. As I remember it, only my bash hat had to be BS or Snell approved, everything else just had to be scrute proof. Is the FIA stuff required for all racers now?
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 12:51 (Ref:3187709)   #19
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don't think there's a short answer to this except to say the Blue book is accessible online
There are still exemptions for pre-1960 vehicles, most everything else needs to be MSA approved for use in UK or FIA approved for use in mainland Europe, but the two sets of requirements are merging year-on-year to simplify things. Belts and seats are now dated and 'lifed'. Gloves and shoes now have to be fire resistant. Etc. So there have been many minor changes in 35 years which add up to a lot.
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 12:56 (Ref:3187711)   #20
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On the hologram thing, it's just a simple way of distinguishing 'the real thing' from copies or forgeries. It's been used by all sorts of industries for years and years e.g concert tickets, body panels (MG Rover I know of), ECUs (ibid), name label clothing (Official Olympic stuff). I don't see the problem either.
It's Friday, the days are getting longer, shouldn't we be prepping the car or servicing the trailer rather than....
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 13:09 (Ref:3187716)   #21
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On the hologram thing, it's just a simple way of distinguishing 'the real thing' from copies or forgeries. It's been used by all sorts of industries for years and years e.g concert tickets, body panels (MG Rover I know of), ECUs (ibid), name label clothing (Official Olympic stuff). I don't see the problem either.
It's Friday, the days are getting longer, shouldn't we be prepping the car or servicing the trailer rather than....


'Move along please, nothing to see here' comes to mind....

But can I be excused servicing trailer please, have VAT to process and then need to get onto tax return.......
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 13:12 (Ref:3187717)   #22
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I think if I am spending that much money on gear then I would prfer my gear to be loked voer by someone very qualified to assess it.
When I'm spending that much on gear I'll get it from somewhere / someone reputable. I may be able to get it cheaper of ebay or wherever but at the end of the day with safety equipment I'm not going to take the chance.

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If you are a racing driver you either have to take responsibility for your own equipment


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I remember many years ago I used a seat that I thought was good, tuyrned to be one of the cheapest, shoddiest pieces of crud I ahve ever seen in an accident.

I could have paid half the price and got something similar second hand but decided to go new, didnt make a blind bit of difference to quality.
But if you'd bought the second hand seat you wouldn't have known its history - had it been involved in a big shunt? You can't always tell by looking at a seat what sort of usage it's had. Seats, belts and helmets aren't something I'd be happy with second hand.

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Ok, it might mean a slightly steeper fee, but lets be honest if you are racing FIA, you are not likely to be running on the tightest of budgets, what price safety.
It's not just competitors in FIA sanctioned events that have to have FIA approved gear. The FIA standard is used obviously for FIA sanctioned events - but national governing bodies can also mandate use of FIA standard gear - and that makes sense surely? One single standard applied across the board means it's easier to know if you've got the right gear and in theory it works out cheaper (making things to one standard as opposed to say 5 different standards). Also it allows national governing bodies to do away with the need to have their own standards inspectors (they don't have to the approval testing on each new item - the FIA has already done it) and that again in theory saves the national competitor money (it would presumably be paid for through licence fees).
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 13:16 (Ref:3187720)   #23
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I really don't see the problem, there's nothing in the rules to say our belts have to have a hologram on them at the moment so mine will be fine until the little label says they're 5 years old. The next set I buy may or may not have the hologram on depending on what the rules say at the time but whatever happens they wont be as cheap as my current set as everything goes up in price, it's a fact of life, get used to it and you can always vote with your wallet.

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But can I be excused servicing trailer please, have VAT to process and then need to get onto tax return.......
Haha, that'll be the next expense when you have to MOT and register your trailer.
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 13:32 (Ref:3187725)   #24
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Haha, that'll be the next expense when you have to MOT and register your trailer.
luckily the local poultry processing company have their own garage and take in outside work.
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Old 11 Jan 2013, 13:48 (Ref:3187732)   #25
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It won't be much of an expense for you then Mike. Just a poultry figure no doubt. They'll soon tell you if you've bought a turkey.

I'll get me coat....
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