[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

I struggle to see how that's not the situation now, with the exception that there's also a World Championship outside of Le Mans!

I not getting the feeling that IMSA & the ACO are heading in the same direction in regards to their top classes in the next set of rules. I could be wrong though.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by TF110

I didn't like the early 2000s with Audi and private teams but now it's Toyota and private teams. It got worse when they were allowed their diesel engines. At least today we have Toyota at over 900kg with their hybrid but private teams are ~830kg and more power/fuel. It still doesn't stack up to Toyota sadly. I hope they get better tires and they are more competitive in this next season. It might be the last for these lmp1's we've come to know and appreciate. At least one with a factory car.

There were actually quite a few factory supported entries in LMP during the early 2000’s. In the 2001-02 LM24 Bentley, Chrysler, Cadillac, MG, and Panoz all fielded entries in the top class. However, none of them were very good, could not touch the R8, and the OEMs lost interest quickly (and didn’t see the point of trying to compete). The R8 really killed LMP globally for about 5 years until Porsche & Acura committed to the ALMS and Peugeot to Europe. I guess we are very much in a similar time period now in the ACO series. I forgot how bad things were and then just looked at the LM24 grid in 2006 when Corvette Racing finished 4th overall.

[S griffin]

Yeah, it was good in the early days of LMP racing, loads of manufacturers, but nobody could touch Audi and they had a clear path to the top. At least Porsche challenged them in ALMS and Peugeot changed the game completely when they entered. Certainly the Audi domination was something else if you look back

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I do see Dyson Mazda's point here. Bigger wings, less weight and more power isn't better tech, it's just a different rule set.

Both DPIs and LMP1s are based on LMP2 chassis, it's just that they've been allowed different amounts of subsequent development. Presumably the DPIs could be lighter, have more downforce and more power if the rule-makers allowed it.

It's not as if DPi is just running 100kg of ballast, the cars are legitimately that much heavier. They share design principles but the LMP2 version of a given car has a lot of stuff omitted, replaced with cheaper technology, or underdeveloped compared to LMP1 to meet the cost cap and satisfy the homologation freeze. It's like denying F1 is higher tech than F2 just because an F2 car looks and sounds pretty much the same and passes a bunch of the F1 regulations.

DPi doesn't seem it would work for WEC for the same reason that the previous new regulations did. It's either too far from an actual road car or too spec and low tech for the manufacturers interested. No one really buys into the alleged styling component of DPi except for Mazda, and GM and Honda USA are definitely not looking at factory supported world championship programs. Toyota would definitely not participate in such a formula and they're the only manufacturer the FIA can almost count on.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

It's not as if DPi is just running 100kg of ballast, the cars are legitimately that much heavier. They share design principles but the LMP2 version of a given car has a lot of stuff omitted, replaced with cheaper technology, or underdeveloped compared to LMP1 to meet the cost cap and satisfy the homologation freeze. It's like denying F1 is higher tech than F2 just because an F2 car looks and sounds pretty much the same and passes a bunch of the F1 regulations.

F1 is higher tech than F2 because they have energy recovery systems that cost $10’s of millions of dollars. Do you think it is fair to say that the GTLM’s in IMSA have better tech than their GTE counterparts in the WEC because they ran a second a lap faster in Sebring qualifying, or would you just boil that down to the regulations?

[ApexTurtle]

Are you really going to go down that road again?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

F1 is higher tech than F2 because they have energy recovery systems that cost $10’s of millions of dollars. Do you think it is fair to say that the GTLM’s in IMSA have better tech than their GTE counterparts in the WEC because they ran a second a lap faster in Sebring qualifying, or would you just boil that down to the regulations?

Agreed. And the same argument goes for GTLM v GTD. There really isn't much of a difference in terms of tech, despite laptimes. We know this because cars can be converted to and from GTE/GT3 spec.

[Deleted]

Having tech/homologation freeze alone makes anything below LMP1 lower tech. Nonhybrids could theoretically still have new aero and whatever for every race if they wanted. Not to mention freedom of tires, not stupid specs

Anyway I'm in the minority but I still rather see bunch of boring pro-am spec cars racing at Le Mans than straight bop wagons. At least (even when left dissatisfied without engineering factor of P1 now and P2 of yesteryear) I know that the best team won, not whoever got lucky or had the best lawyers or "turn to win" or other question mark

[hondafan37]

Endurance info says that the rules are ready and they are not Hypercars hybrid. DPI? GTE+?

https://www.endurance-info.com/fr/hy...lhorizon-2020/

[TF110]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Endurance info says that the rules are ready and they are not Hypercars hybrid. DPI? GTE+?

https://www.endurance-info.com/fr/hy...lhorizon-2020/

Looks like the article is behind a subscription.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

Looks like the article is behind a subscription.

yes it's true, it's behind a subscription and I can not read it either, but the little that lets you read says that the rules are ready and they are not Hypercars hybrid.

[TF110]

Imo, the best bet is to continue with what they have now and let the teams stay with their lmp1's, including Toyota. Open it up a little bit to include new technologies in a few year's time (2023/24) and have them test the waters in G56. The last thing I want is slow cars that back up lmp2 into GTE. That's the direction they were headed in the latest news. 1150kg with less than 700hp is basically 2000's FIA GT1 all over again with the Maserati MC12 being the benchmark. That'd be cool for GTE's future, but not lmp imo.

[Deleted]

Well I think the 3:30 bit is inevitable for 2024 because of Zero Emission tech limitations, even if they were run to the old LMP1 rules to that point. So there will be heavy slowing down regardless. But given what Glickenhaus commented to this thread last week, I don't think P1 is what we're going to get. And if it's not bop hypercars either as per E-I, then I guess it's bop GTE-GT1.

[Akrapovic]

I'm not so bothered about the 3:30 lap time for LMP1. I'm not happy about it, but I don't think the LMP1 lap time is the biggest problem with the speed reduction. I'm more worried about what they'll have to do to LMP2 and GTE. LMP2 was given a speed boost to stop LMP drivers dive-bombing GTEs. And it worked - we do have less GTE/LMP accidents than we used to. The added boost of hybrids solved it for LMP1, and the added power solved it in LMP2.

To maintain that level of improvement between LMP and GTE, you'll need to dramatically slow other classes. A lot. This LMP1 rebalance has massive knock-on effects to the other classes which are yet to be addressed.

That's my biggest issue with the lap times drop. Yeah, it'll be sad not to see lap records and laps below the 3:20 mark again. But the effect this will have on racing is far bigger than raw lap time numbers.

[Deleted]

They'll never be able to reach the 1000 mile distance at Sebring with the power reduction either, when even now it's theoretical

Also the ACO heads have boasted about lap records being smashed at The Bend, but they'll only have next year to do it until P2 cars are neutered back. If it rains they might never get those headlines

Now of course things like these are only minor trivials in the sea of problems of which Akra wrote above, but you know.

There was also a time when GT1 cars overlapped LMP2 performances at Le Mans, particularly at Mulsanne, but back in those days there wasn't any proam element to the classes

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

yes it's true, it's behind a subscription and I can not read it either, but the little that lets you read says that the rules are ready and they are not Hypercars hybrid.

No, this is not true. The French text, loosely translated, basically says: "The FIA website has a section on 2020 LMP rules but it's still unclear what it's going to be. Hypercar? GTE+? DPi? A mix of all with BoP? Nobody knows for sure but time is running out". Then it says there are some rumors that only hypercars with hybrids like the original regulations is not likely which we already knew anyway since Sebring.


If you don't speak the language please don't spread misinformation

[S griffin]

I see. Thanks for the translation. We have got no clearer picture it seems. Still no sign of definite sign of hypercars, we need to enjoy these LMPs while they last though.

[S griffin]

I just wonder when they will finally make an announcement. This thing dragging on and on ain’t helping the series

[TF110]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

No, this is not true. The French text, loosely translated, basically says: "The FIA website has a section on 2020 LMP rules but it's still unclear what it's going to be. Hypercar? GTE+? DPi? A mix of all with BoP? Nobody knows for sure but time is running out". Then it says there are some rumors that only hypercars with hybrids like the original regulations is not likely which we already knew anyway since Sebring.


If you don't speak the language please don't spread misinformation

I don't think he meant to spread "misinformation", he just posted what he thought was the translation. I don't think any of our posts influence what the new rules will be since they're pretty much set in stone according to the lone person on this thread who does know the regs.

[S griffin]

Well we all make mistakes. I think they might be trying not to give too much away at this time, unless they haven’t decided as of yet of course

[Deleted]

Re: Toyota thread, apparently there was a press conference yesterday where Neveu said he was impatient with the non-rules, but nothing was revealed. The next "working group" is meeting on May 16.

I guess what Glickenhaus said earlier was a bit premature

[TzeiTzei]

I don't about hypercars etc. but they should be thinking about next season as well. LMP1 has been dreadful to watch all season and something should be done about it. I didn't watch Sebring and right now I have no interest in even watching LM. There is zero competition at the front of the field. It's a parade.

[S griffin]

Well not enough info about hypercars atm. Certainly LMP1 has been between two cars, but it still has the interest. But not enough manufacturers atm. We need more if it is to survive, so let’s see

[MagVanisher]

Man, if only ACO, FIA, IMSA, SRO, and even GTA/DTM would sit together and discuss the future of sportscar racing that would be benefit for all of them. Of course, that wouldn't happen realistically.

But you know what, I think they should consider using IMSA's DPI model or even the Class One regulations from Super GT/DTM when making the hypercar regulations, although the former would be cheaper compared to the latter.

[S griffin]

Maybe they just leave it on the sidelines and don't have the desire to move forward

I like the idea of using IMSA/DPI rules. Not sure about Super GT/Class one rules, although that would go well with the hypercars. But it probably won't happen